Feedback for Study Plan Needed

[smallwhite]

Did you follow this study plan and how is it going?

Italian: Yes. ... I'm doing a touch of anki and grammar but am 90% in compliance with the original plan.

It's great you're doing well, but I was more after an experiment, 100% implementation, as:

And what's so special about this plan? It skips pronunciation, coursebooks, grammars, workbooks, conversation, self-talk, writing... things that many of us find beneficial, but otherwise listening and reading is just something all of us do, no?

You answered your own question!

But anyway,

... how is it going?

Italian: ... Great!

Here, you seem to mean "great it works" as opposed to "great it works better or faster than X". Personally I think anything reasonable would work for a Cat I language so I'd like to know: What was or is your benchmark? What would your alternatives have been? How do they compare with this current method?

Russian. So-so. ... Out of frustration...

It's funny but relative success in Italian makes me want to do more Italian and relative failure in Russian makes it hard for me to do more Russian. There's the danger of a vicious cycle ensuing.

The FSI difficulty list makes me feel than a Cat IV language (eg. Russian) is a "typical foreign language", that Cat IV is a default difficulty for a foreign language; while Cats I to III involve discounts and aren't really 100% foreign languages. So, a Cat IV language makes for a "real test" for a learning method. But Cat I languages are more popular among learners. So it's great for us onlookers that you're doing both. For yourself I think (hope) it makes for variety and balance and helps keep sanity.

But then, why are you feeling frustrated? Did you have some timeframe/benchmark/milestones in mind that you haven't been meeting?

... even if that means watching Star Media productions

I assume you mean shows that are boring or somehow torturous. And 300 hours of that is better than 6 hours of desk work plus 100 hours of background sound?

[reineke]

They're all real foreign languages.

[Xmmm]

great you're doing well, but I was more after an experiment, 100% implementation, as:

It's very difficult, I think, to do something purely as an experiment and stick to it 100%, when if the experiment fails you just wasted 1000 hours of time. I think the only reason I added anki for Italian was that I started panicking in Russian, and tend to do the same things for both languages (which may be a mistake). It actually feels somewhat silly using anki for Italian, since the leech rate is 1% and I mark half the cards as 'easy' the first time I see them.

Here, you seem to mean "great it works" as opposed to "great it works better or faster than X". Personally I think anything reasonable would work for a Cat I language so I'd like to know: What was or is your benchmark? What would your alternatives have been? How do they compare with this current method?

My alternatives would have been to buy some textbooks, and not finish them. Or get tutoring at the A1 level, decide it was a waste of time and money, and so on. Or spin from guru to guru (the smallwhite method, Luca's method, Olly's method, Benny's method, whatever).

The advantage of using TV and just going into a trance to passively absorb knowledge ... you are basically finding a way to use a rather diabolical device for good purposes.

The FSI difficulty list makes me feel than a Cat IV language (eg. Russian) is a "typical foreign language", that Cat IV is a default difficulty for a foreign language; while Cats I to III involve discounts and aren't really 100% foreign languages. So, a Cat IV language makes for a "real test" for a learning method. But Cat I languages are more popular among learners. So it's great for us onlookers that you're doing both. For yourself I think (hope) it makes for variety and balance and helps keep sanity.

But then, why are you feeling frustrated? Did you have some timeframe/benchmark/milestones in mind that you haven't been meeting?

I've been around B1 in Russian for a long time ... the frustration comes from being on this plateau that seems to stretch forever. And going in I knew that by FSI calculated hours Russian was twice as hard as Italian, and I accepted that. But it seems like for me, personally, it's more like 3 or 4 times harder.

... even if that means watching Star Media productions

I assume you mean shows that are boring or somehow torturous. And 300 hours of that is better than 6 hours of desk work plus 100 hours of background sound?

Well, I did try to use the "smallwhite method" and put in the 6 + 100 hours. It was a good faith effort. You're saying I did it wrong, maybe so. But if I did it wrong, means maybe I can't do it right. I did see some incremental progress in terms of parsing. But seems like massive exposure and massive vocabulary gains are still needed. I tested B1 on that vocab test that was going around a while back, like 108/150. It seems like to understand Russian TV you need to score 140/150 at least, and still have hundreds of hours of exposure.

[smallwhite]

It's very difficult, I think, to do something purely as an experiment and stick to it 100%, ...

That's why I was hoping YOU would do it! I'm always trying different methods but only methods that I think would work (fast).

I've been around B1 in Russian for a long time ... the frustration comes from being on this plateau that seems to stretch forever.

Many people seem motivated by setting and meeting little random goals, and by tracking hours or films and whatnot and seeing the number grow. But if you're not doing those things already, you're probably not motivated by such things. Other people seem motivated by seeing their ability to use the language grow - speaking better, writing better, scoring better in tests and grammar exercises. But your method excludes these things so.

"smallwhite method" ... You're saying I did it wrong...

I mean it was Ari's method you were using. I'll write more in the other thread.

But seems like massive exposure and massive vocabulary gains are still needed. I tested B1 on that vocab test that was going around a while back, like 108/150. It seems like to understand Russian TV you need to score 140/150 at least, and still have hundreds of hours of exposure.

I can't learn vocabulary (fast enough for my liking) from reading, nevermind from listening, so methods I use and recommend likely don't involve learning vocabulary through input / likely assume you learn vocabulary separately.

Thanks for the analysis! Very insightful and useful.

[Xmmm]

Many people seem motivated by setting and meeting little random goals, and by tracking hours or films and whatnot and seeing the number grow. But if you're not doing those things already, you're probably not motivated by such things. Other people seem motivated by seeing their ability to use the language grow - speaking better, writing better, scoring better in tests and grammar exercises. But your method excludes these things so.

I've internalized the idea that there's no point in trying to speak better until I can listen better. And listening better is being hampered by vocabulary and morphology.

I've tried using anki with Russian vocab for the last two months and am about to give up on that. An hour a day of reviews and it doesn't seem faster than other methods (for me, anyway). A couple days ago I was watching a show where the word наблюдение was used about four times in one minute. I knew that I'd reviewed that word in anki multiple, multiple times -- yet for the life of me I couldn't remember what it meant. If anki worked, shouldn't I have known the meaning of that word? It wasn't in the leech pile. I read somewhere that the fact that you can produce the word in the flashcard review process doesn't guarantee you can produce the word in the wild.

So ... back to floundering. There is slow incremental progress in the listening. Give up the anki and listen and read more, hope for better days ...

[smallwhite]

I've internalized the idea that there's no point in trying to speak better until I can listen better. And listening better is being hampered by vocabulary and morphology.

Give up the anki ...

I've actually come to the opposite conclusion.

You seem very smart and well-educated. I suggest you read up on language-learning research and people's personal experiences, sit down and think hard about them, and then design a method that incorporates all that as well as your personal strengths, weaknesses and preferences. Instead of picking off-the-shelf method packages. I feel that you lack the time and energy to really think about language-learning in general and your own learning in particular, but I think you have the ability to do so.

PS. I discovered Turkish and am loving it.

[leosmith]

The FSI difficulty list makes me feel than a Cat IV language (eg. Russian) is a "typical foreign language", that Cat IV is a default difficulty for a foreign language; while Cats I to III involve discounts and aren't really 100% foreign languages. So, a Cat IV language makes for a "real test" for a learning method. But Cat I languages are more popular among learners.

Well said. If something doesn't work for a cat IV but does for a cat I, I'd like to know if it's more efficient to do the thing that works for cat IV (typo - wrote cat V accidentally) instead. Opinions?

[smallwhite]

If something doesn't work for a cat IV but does for a cat I, I'd like to know if it's more efficient to do the thing that works for cat V instead. Opinions?

I think a lot more information is needed to tell.

[Xmmm]

The FSI difficulty list makes me feel than a Cat IV language (eg. Russian) is a "typical foreign language", that Cat IV is a default difficulty for a foreign language; while Cats I to III involve discounts and aren't really 100% foreign languages. So, a Cat IV language makes for a "real test" for a learning method. But Cat I languages are more popular among learners.

Well said. If something doesn't work for a cat IV but does for a cat I, I'd like to know if it's more efficient to do the thing that works for cat V instead. Opinions?

The only thing I've learned is that for a Cat I it's okay to dive bomb in and go native early. The places where things are different or tricky will mostly sort themselves out over time without any special effort on the learner's part, and if not they can always do a quick skim of the grammar later to polish up.

Whereas Cat IV should be approached with respect and humility. I thought I could do one Assimil course and then go native and somehow I would intuit and assimilate everything ... and it just didn't happen. In retrospect, I should have rolled from Assimil directly into Modern Russian and/or Russian in Exercises and only at the conclusion of those formal studies should I have start watching very simple shows, with subtitles where available, etc. Had I taken that approach I would have saved at least 500 hours.

[smallwhite]

vocabulary

How are you doing picking up vocabulary with this method?

You only mention lack of vocabulary. What about grammar? No problem? Because your previous study has provided you with sufficient grammar? Or because you are picking up grammar fine with this method?

Do you feel (possible) improvement in speaking?