Feedback for Study Plan Needed

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4880

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby smallwhite » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:44 pm

Xmmm wrote:... Italian
... please respond with any feedback you like but include a letter grade for the plan (A through F).

Xmmm wrote:... add up to 2500 hours


Italian taking 2500 hours => F
That's 3.4 years at 2 hours/day.
But what level will this plan reach?

And what's so special about this plan? It skips pronunciation, coursebooks, grammars, workbooks, conversation, self-talk, writing... things that many of us find beneficial, but otherwise listening and reading is just something all of us do, no?
1 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby Xmmm » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:28 pm

smallwhite wrote:
And what's so special about this plan? It skips pronunciation, coursebooks, grammars, workbooks, conversation, self-talk, writing...


You answered your own question!

I feel that ALG is the method I was born to use, but that I bungled it with Russian due to errors of reading too soon, reading silently, reading stuff that was too difficult, listening to things where I had low comprehension, etc.

Which is not to say I'm completely unhappy with my level in Russian ... I just think I spent 1100 hours doing something I could have done in perhaps 700 if I had had a better understanding of what I was trying to do. And I'm still lacking in 400 hours of comprehensible listening. I've read 22 books if we go by word count (I've read 1.7 million words), so I'm lacking there as well. But I need to start reading extensively and re-reading.
2 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4880

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby smallwhite » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:13 pm

Okay I get it. So this is the Chocolate Cake Method that rdearman talked about.

I love experiments so I hope you stick to your plan. Good luck!
4 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby reineke » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:03 pm

Xenops wrote:For people that don't know what ALG is (I didn't), it stands for Automatic Language Growth, and here is a link to learn more about it: https://thaiwithoutstudy.wordpress.com/the-entire-pre-blog-journal/


To ALG or Not to ALG

A Language Learner’s Dilemma

By Antonio Graceffo

"Automatic Language Growth (ALG) has many advantages over other language learning methods, but the cost in time and dedication is high. You need to first determine your own personal goals and level of commitment before deciding which rout to take.

In ALG, students learn through listening. They don’t read, write or even speak until hundreds of hours into the course. The idea is to get your listening to a high level first, so you know what the words should sound like, then later you start producing the sounds yourself. Much later, if you chose that option, you learn to read and write.

Using ALG concepts, you would first learn to listen and speak. You wouldn’t look at a printed page till you were competent in the language.

This is exactly how Vietnamese children learn. They have a good size functional vocabulary before they learn to read or write at age six or seven. They know what the words mean and how to use them. Then they learn to read...

This is how we should learn Chinese or Vietnamese. But the bonus in Vietnamese is that if you were already competent in the language, learning to read and write would probably only take a few weeks of study, as opposed to years, as it would with Chinese...

The problem that we keep running into with exporting ALG outside of the classroom in Thailand is that it takes 800 hours of listening to learn Chinese, Thai or Vietnamese. Most ex-pats, on a one year contract wouldn’t be willing to or simply couldn’t put in the 16 hours a week that it would take to reach 800 hours by the end of their one year contract...

When I posed this point to David Long, he countered, asked what people hoped to gain by studying only four hours a week by any method.

“They would learn their numbers, hello, how are you, and be somewhat functional if not very, very badly.” I answered. David and I are strictly in agreement on the importance of listening and on proper pronunciation.

"In reality, most of the foreigners who believe they are functional are actually living with the illusion of functionality. But, they feel they learned something, so they feel their money was well spent. And really bad, traditional teaching methods continue to sell well.

David’s answer was, “But they wouldn’t be fluent.”

He is absolutely right. If you take a traditional approach, and if you only do a few hours per week, you would never achieve fluency. In fact, you would never achieve correct pronunciation. The National Language Service, Defense Language Institute, The Foreign Service Institute and ALG (Automatic Language Growth) all agree that you need 800 – 2,000 hours to learn Thai, Chinese, or Vietnamese. For ALG the first 800 hours would be spent listening, you would need an additional 1,200 hours for reading and writing.

These organizations can’t all be wrong.. "

https://www.google.com/amp/s/brooklynmo ... o-alg/amp/
5 x

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby Xmmm » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:53 pm

reineke wrote:"In reality, most of the foreigners who believe they are functional are actually living with the illusion of functionality. But, they feel they learned something, so they feel their money was well spent. And really bad, traditional teaching methods continue to sell well.

David’s answer was, “But they wouldn’t be fluent.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/brooklynmo ... o-alg/amp/


Thanks for this. The full article says speaking should come after listening period is complete (but before reading and writing), so I guess I should do more like

800 hours listening
fsi + glossika + 200 hours italki
read 100 books

He had another post about foreigners who think they're fluent but aren't. Basically they dominate the conversations they are in and try to keep steering them back to the islands where they feel comfortable, because they don't have the ability to process random input. I don't want to end up like that.
1 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10600

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:08 pm

I had a look at this thread earlier today and was about to ask you about reading as the first step. Now I see that you've postponed it.

If you were to do 800 hours of listening on your own, would you listening to "anything" or do your best to find comprehensible input? Are the 800 hours supposed to be "unique" hours, or is repeated listening OK? (I'm not thinking of repeating a one-minute dialogue 48 000 times, but perhaps something like 400 unique hours and then some repeated content - e.g. audiobooks.)
1 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby reineke » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:15 pm

My guess is that after 800 hours of listening you could be very pleased with your comprehension skills. You could also end up disappointed. Don't expect perfection.
4 x

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby Xmmm » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:46 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:I had a look at this thread earlier today and was about to ask you about reading as the first step. Now I see that you've postponed it.

If you were to do 800 hours of listening on your own, would you listening to "anything" or do your best to find comprehensible input? Are the 800 hours supposed to be "unique" hours, or is repeated listening OK? (I'm not thinking of repeating a one-minute dialogue 48 000 times, but perhaps something like 400 unique hours and then some repeated content - e.g. audiobooks.)


Graceffo says comprehension has to be higher than 50%, or it's a waste of time (another mistake of mine). He suggests cartoons, and if they are too hard you can watch them in English first. And you can rewatch anything you want after one month goes by and rewatching counts in the total.

On dubbed stuff in Italian, my comprehension is 40-60%. Definitely most animated shows it's a bit over 50%. Real Italian shows, it's lower. I guess 30% for Il segreto dell'acqua. Maybe if I watch it once with English subs (and don't count those hours) I can count it when I rewatch.

I don't think there's any grown up Russian show where my comprehension is over 40%, so looks like I might have to watch Винни-Пух and Masha and the Bear for a while.
1 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1353
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3158
Contact:

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby leosmith » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:08 am

Xmmm wrote:For the purpose of this thread, please respond with any feedback you like but include a letter grade for the plan (A through F).

I’ll evaluate the method in general, and not as applied to your specific situation. Here are things that, imo, could be improved in rough order of importance:
1) There is no pronunciation component. I recommend doing it first, although doing some listening before it is ok. Any other order is damaging to pronunciation in the long run.
2) I assume your step 2. should say “complete” rather than “commence”, otherwise it’s not ALG. The 800 hrs listening without doing anything else will make most people quit. Ok, most people quit regardless, but the long listening-only period is the number one thing people hate about ALG, and the biggest reason why it’s not as successful as other methods.
3) There’s no writing component, which will make the study plan less efficient in general.
4) Learning vocabulary out of context is a bad idea. It doesn’t stick well.
5) 100 books is too much.
6) It would be really hard to get graduated material to keep you over 50% comprehension during the 800 hrs listening.
7) Having a normal grammar learning component early on in your studies, for example completing a textbook in the first year, followed by review as needed is much more efficient than just trying to learn it as needed.
8) There’s no on-going vocabulary review component.
I’ll give it a C. It’s got some major flaws, but if you really do everything on the list you’ll probably reach a decent level.
Antonio Graceffo wrote:This is exactly how Vietnamese children learn.

nuff said
11 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10600

Re: Feedback for Study Plan Needed

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:12 am

Thanks for the explanations, Xmmm!

#2 I also think it will be difficult (and possibly boring) to stick to listening before the 800 hours are over.
#6 Where do we find material which is just right for the current level? Is it even possible for 800 hours?

Another question (regarding ALG) - is 800 hours a perfect number? How counterproductive is it if you do something else after the 799th hour? After the 643rd? After the 432nd? Are some activities more counterproductive than others? At which point?

This being said, I think I'd be willing to give it a chance, if I had 800 hours of audio in a language I had zero knowledge of. :?
2 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests