“all you need to learn a language is …”

[leosmith]

I’ve been mulling this over for a while and wanted to get your opinions on it. I think there are 5 things needed for an adult to learn a foreign language from scratch to an advanced level. I realize things could be divided up in many different ways, but 5 is sort of the minimum number that makes sense to me. So here they are, in no particular order:

1) Adequate mental health. In the past I left this out, but I’m attempting to include everything this time. I’m not saying someone needs to have above average intelligence, or that they must be free of mental illness; we have seen many examples of these not stopping someone from learning languages. I’m merely stating that there are some mental conditions, such as a coma, that would make it impossible.
2) Time. It takes a lot of time to learn a language. If one doesn’t have enough, they won’t be able to succeed.
3) Resources. If one has no access to native speakers, texts, recordings, internet, or any other resources, one won’t be able to learn the language.
4) Motivation. To achieve a high level in a language it takes hundreds if not thousands of hours spread over months or years. To persistently go at it and keep up the momentum enough to actually make progress, motivation is necessary.
5) Method. I’m using this as a sort of a bucket. First, I think there are some methods that just won’t work even if all other requirements are met. For example, doing nothing but leaving a Russian radio station on while you sleep every night. Second, I often hear people say things like “in order to learn a language, you have to listen a lot”. I believe it depends on the goal of the learner, or that the method needs to be appropriate for the goals. So I would stick things like the 4 basic skills, grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, etc, etc, under “method”.

I’ve written my opinions here, and I’d like to know what you think, but I haven’t talked about “how much” of each item we need. I really don’t know, to be honest. If you ask me a specific question about it I’ll try to answer, but my intent for this thread was just to try to nail down what is really necessary when it comes to language learning, and what is the bare minimum number of bullet points we can get away with.

Another thing – you’ve probably heard a lot of famous polyglots say “all you need to learn a language is …” Feel free to discuss those lists here, and let us know if you agree with them.

[the1whoknocks]

This might fall under motivation, or be obvious, but I'd say: belief that it's really possible, and realistic expectations are important. I admit, that may just be stating the obvious .. or don't matter once one's motivation is strong enough.

I say this never having learned a second language to an advanced level.

[mcthulhu]

I wouldn't really consider a coma a mental condition. You might want to scratch that example. It seems too obvious that you need to be conscious in order to study. Maybe something like learning disabilities or significant dyslexia might be a better example in this context (a hindrance, I suspect, if not an absolute barrier). Otherwise, the factors listed are general enough that they're hard to argue with.

If they're meant to be in order of priority, I might put motivation first. Whether it's internal or external shouldn't matter too much.

The method paragraph is kind of hard to follow because it seems to conflate what you're learning with how you're learning it. I wouldn't usually classify "grammar," etc. as learning methods. Those seem more like sub-goals. I agree that you do need some kind of plan or structure, though, including some way to define and measure progress.

I thought it was interesting that you didn't mention any kind of inborn talent or aptitude, e.g. related to verbal memory, working memory capacity, auditory discrimination, and so forth. There have been at least a couple of papers published on "language learning disabilities" (see https://outreach.colorado.edu/pdf/langu ... o_2004.pdf); and I've known people who've been denied admission to language programs because their scores on the relevant aptitude tests were just too low. In that context, at least, there was a minimum level of aptitude required. (I once heard certain individuals privately described by a language teacher as "the hard-core untrainables," which was unkind but possibly true.) An institution may not want to invest too much in students with a low probability of reaching a specified level by a specified time. Of course, that may or may not be relevant to independent learners with all the time in the world.

A low aptitude for learning languages is probably not a mental health condition, so I don't think it would fit under your first point.

[galaxyrocker]

4) Motivation. To achieve a high level in a language it takes hundreds if not thousands of hours spread over months or years. To persistently go at it and keep up the momentum enough to actually make progress, motivation is necessary.

I would change this to discipline rather than motivation. Motivation will run out, but discipline will keep you learning even when it does.

[ekat2.0]

I'd go with "strong interest" rather than "mental health."
I believe that success begets success. So, passing a test, or making a friend smile (however you define success) is reason enough to keep going. Obviously there is a point where frustration occurs. In learning, you go to the point of frustration (vygotsky's zone of proximal development) where, you then either ask for some help, or find some help in another form. You need to always stay at a slightly "uncomfortable" level. Otherwise it is too easy and you are not "growing." Frustration is good. Failure is good.

[Random Review]

I wouldn't really consider a coma a mental condition. You might want to scratch that example. It seems too obvious that you need to be conscious in order to study. Maybe something like learning disabilities or significant dyslexia might be a better example in this context (a hindrance, I suspect, if not an absolute barrier). Otherwise, the factors listed are general enough that they're hard to argue with.

If they're meant to be in order of priority, I might put motivation first. Whether it's internal or external shouldn't matter too much.

The method paragraph is kind of hard to follow because it seems to conflate what you're learning with how you're learning it. I wouldn't usually classify "grammar," etc. as learning methods. Those seem more like sub-goals. I agree that you do need some kind of plan or structure, though, including some way to define and measure progress.

I thought it was interesting that you didn't mention any kind of inborn talent or aptitude, e.g. related to verbal memory, working memory capacity, auditory discrimination, and so forth. There have been at least a couple of papers published on "language learning disabilities" (see https://outreach.colorado.edu/pdf/langu ... o_2004.pdf); and I've known people who've been denied admission to language programs because their scores on the relevant aptitude tests were just too low. In that context, at least, there was a minimum level of aptitude required. (I once heard certain individuals privately described by a language teacher as "the hard-core untrainables," which was unkind but possibly true.) An institution may not want to invest too much in students with a low probability of reaching a specified level by a specified time. Of course, that may or may not be relevant to independent learners with all the time in the world.

A low aptitude for learning languages is probably not a mental health condition, so I don't think it would fit under your first point.

This kind of thinking is the biggest problem IMO. In my experience a person's belief (not the actuality) that he or she cannot learn a language (or Math(s) is another common one) is the single biggest obstacle to learning a language and 99 times/100 it is absolute nonsense.
It is trivially obvious that there are a tiny minority of unfortunate individuals who have some serious damage to their brain (due to accident, illness, etc) that cannot learn a language; but the rest of us fall on a continuum. It's absolutely not the case that X can learn a language and Y cannot; it's that X might take 800 hours to learn a given language with a given routine and Y might take 950 hours (meanwhile Y might learn something else more easily than X).

What is this obsession we have in our society with ranking people according to [what we think is] their potential? Even if we were good at it (which we emphatically are not!), it's a bizarre direction to channel resources (time, research, money) and I can't help but suspect that it has nothing to do with the actual relative importance of such differences and everything to do with ideology.

If you are reading this thread, have never learned a second language before and are one of those people who suspects they are not good at languages, remember 3 things:

1) Even if you are right, you can still learn a language, it will just take you longer to learn a given language with a given method. Also we are talking percentages here: 10, 20, 30% longer; not 2, 3, 4 times as long. Indeed hard work and a good strategy will trump natural ability every single time, the fact that you are even on here reading about strategies suggests that you are likely to be sufficiently clued up to learn much faster than average, regardless of your aptitude.

2) Your self assessment is probably wrong. There's a guy on here (Anthony Lauder?) who self-describes as a terrible language learner and he seems to believe it, yet he blatantly is not. Your self assessment of your aptitude is not likely to reflect reality, nor is the assessment of your friends, family and teachers; it is far more likely to reflect your social "niche". So unless you've been to a prestigious university and undergone a battery of tests, don't even start with that attitude.

3) Aptitude is not immutable. Your brain is plastic. The famous case of the London cab drivers, etc. etc. So even in the unlikely event that you do currently have a really low aptitude for languages and yet you want to be a hyperglot, go for it! You will get better at it!

[aokoye]

1) Adequate mental health. In the past I left this out, but I’m attempting to include everything this time. I’m not saying someone needs to have above average intelligence, or that they must be free of mental illness; we have seen many examples of these not stopping someone from learning languages. I’m merely stating that there are some mental conditions, such as a coma, that would make it impossible.

You are conflating mental health conditions with neurological conditions which doesn't make much sense. Talking about learning disabilities like dyslexia and other processing disorders would be doing the same thing (and people with processing disorders can and do learn foreign languages). I do think that being able to manage one's mental health conditions plays a part in how efficient they would otherwise learn an L2, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying.

[leosmith]

This might fall under motivation, or be obvious, but I'd say: belief that it's really possible

In my experience a person's belief (not the actuality) that he or she cannot learn a language (or Math(s) is another common one) is the single biggest obstacle to learning a language and 99 times/100 it is absolute nonsense.

That's a good one. Whether to give it a separate point, call it motivation or even mental health since it seems logical, makes me wonder... Leaning towards a separate point.

A low aptitude for learning languages is probably not a mental health condition

I was going for more of a minimum mental ability to account for the small percentage that Random Review mentioned, so I may have to reword it, but the mental issues in your post should go under it imo. I don't see the need to prioritize motivation; all items are necessary.

I would change this to discipline rather than motivation. Motivation will run out, but discipline will keep you learning even when it does.

Discipline seems more like method to me.

I'd go with "strong interest" rather than "mental health."

"strong interest" I would call motivation.

Edit: Maybe I'll combine mental health and motivation into something like "appropriate state of mind - having a functioning mind, being motivated to learn, believing that it's possible, etc.

[DaveBee]

1) Adequate mental health. In the past I left this out, but I’m attempting to include everything this time. I’m not saying someone needs to have above average intelligence, or that they must be free of mental illness; we have seen many examples of these not stopping someone from learning languages. I’m merely stating that there are some mental conditions, such as a coma, that would make it impossible.

You are conflating mental health conditions with neurological conditions which doesn't make much sense. Talking about learning disabilities like dyslexia and other processing disorders would be doing the same thing (and people with processing disorders can and do learn foreign languages). I do think that being able to manage one's mental health conditions plays a part in how efficient they would otherwise learn an L2, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying.

It would be interesting to know if there are more mute people in particular populations.

There was an article some time ago saying that brains had to work harder (both hemispheres rather than just one) processing tonal (?) languages than others.

EDIT
Article

They found that the left temporal lobe, which is located by the left temple, becomes active when English speakers hear English.

The researchers believe that this area of the brain links speech sounds together to form individual words.

They expected similar findings when they carried out scans on Mandarin speakers.

However, they found that both their left and right temporal lobes become active when they hear Mandarin.

[smallwhite]

4) Motivation. To achieve a high level in a language it takes hundreds if not thousands of hours spread over months or years. To persistently go at it and keep up the momentum enough to actually make progress, motivation is necessary.

You need to spend the time, and I think anything that makes you spend the time will do. It doesn't have to be motivation. It could be habit, it could be some externally imposed requirement which you don't mind following. You could be neutral and passive about the whole thing but as long as you spend the time, you'll get there.