On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby aaleks » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:22 pm

For starters :) , I can swear that I've never used swear words, either in English or in Russian, on this forum.
I assume, that when I write in English I appear as more polite, and also dull and not-too-smart person :lol: , than when I write in my native tongue. Speaking more seriously, the reason is that in Russian I can write more carelessly (let alone the grammar). I know how those words work, what will be seen as a joke and what as an insult. I know when and where I may cross the line or step on the line. I can make the choices. With English it's like a walk across a mine field. So, I think, that "rule" of kind of distancing yourself from foreign words works when you are C1/C2 already.
Turning back to the essay, there's been another paragraph that caught my attention, about her mother's and uncles' Franish. It reminded me of my current struggle to separate somehow Russian and English in my head.
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby Iversen » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:21 pm

Most human beings around me speak Danish so if I let a swear word pass my lips with the intention of communicating my opinion on something it will mostly be formulated in Danish. But inside my head it could just as well be in English or French or German (less often in other languages since my dirty wordstock there is less extensive).

In principle I should use my less salubrious vocabulary in foreign languages during my travels, but I rarely utter swearwords to service providers since that might seriously lower their service level - and many of the people I speak to during a travel are supposed to provide some kind of service. My inner monologue may however still be formulated in the local language - and gosh, there many things to comment upon using swearwords!
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby emk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:46 pm

tommus wrote:You can see that effect here on the Forum. People writing in their second languages seem much more comfortable saying swear words or "filthy" words than the natives in those languages.

I don't think I swear much on the forum, in any language. But I would find it really weird to never swear in French. I've spoken mostly French with my wife for close to half a decade now, I've read far too many trashy-but-entertaining websites (avoid opening these at work, they're usually mostly safe but you never know), and I've watched a lot of media. At some point, it becomes weird to completely avoid swearing in French. OK, sure, in all those years, I've made people burst into laughter once or twice, but hey, if I can make people laugh occasionally, I'm happy with that. :-) I think the biggest laugh was when I wanted to say interpeller par la police, which is a typical newspaper phrase, but I had completely blanked on interpeller. I could only remember se faire choper par les flics, which is quite slangy, so I just did my best and tried to make a joke out of it. It proved far more hilarious than I anticipated!

Actually, I don't feel any huge "distancing" effect when speaking casual French. I guess this is because I've lived enough of my personal life in French that it feels "real" to me.
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby Cavesa » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:01 pm

I swear a lot in all my languages. I sweared a lot less in French, because I was trying not to make a worse impression than necessary during my Erasmus :-D But I swear a lot. I try hard to stay within the rules of this forum, with my log being the most tempting place for mistakes in this area.

By the way, have you also heard the myth, that "there is only one swear word in French. Merde. Or perhaps some derived words, but nothing else"? :-D It is part of the "oh, it is such a romantic language, language of high culture and classical literature, everything sounds like poetry in French" idea. I heard that myth many times. And the people didn't believe me the opposite, even when I told them examples, and when they didn't know French themselves! :-D If only they knew how rich the French language was!

And I learnt some nice Spanish swearwords in a lab. Cutting stuff on a microtome makes people rememeber those a lot :-D

The essay was really good.

I am thinking in any of my languages, despite not being bilingual, and sometimes totally randomly. Sometimes, the moment is simply made for a thought in Italian. Sometimes I catch myself in an intensive inner discussion (like those moments you surprisingly come up with the perfect answer to some nonsense someone told you a few days before) which just happens to be in Spanish. There is no rule. But of course my inner Italian is bound to be worse than my inner French or English.

The author talks about borrowing words from each of the languages. It happens here on the forums too, or in our real lives. I guess everyone has sometimes just thought (or even used) a saying, that was not originally in that langauge, and was not always understood. Or invented a word based on a foreign one. But her example of the family Franish version was absolutely awesome. Perhaps that is how Catalan was invented, ages ago.

It is sometimes even funny, when some things are easier done in one language, than the other. For example, it is extremely hard for me to write longer texts in Czech. The thoughts simply don't come so easy, the sentences refuse to just get pinned on the paper or display. My Czech grammar is good, but the style is much worse. It is also easier to talk in French than in English. And it had been so for a long time, long before Erasmus, long before C2.

Do you think bilingual writers white their whole books in one language? Even the first draft? Or do they sometimes need to translate a chapter afterwards?
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby Tillumadoguenirurm » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:58 pm

...Joder... I was going to write a really clever post after all that but now I can't remember anything. :lol:
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby Serpent » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:49 am

I wonder how many people who feel uncomfortable have actual memories of being punished for using these words :? :shock:

(One more factor is that swear words can be borrowed. The f-word is used in various languages nowadays)

As for slang, it's incredibly annoying to have to look it up just to understand a post (if slang is not the actual topic, of course). This includes things that are perfectly tame. Quite frankly, not every L2 speaker here actually loves English or cares about slang.

About asterisks, that mostly concerns the purely linguistic discussions. If you need to ask about an offensive word (especially racist, sexist, homophobic etc), please use them. In most other contexts you probably need to get rid of the word altogether.
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby Cavesa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:34 pm

Serpent wrote:(One more factor is that swear words can be borrowed. The f-word is used in various languages nowadays)

As for slang, it's incredibly annoying to have to look it up just to understand a post (if slang is not the actual topic, of course). This includes things that are perfectly tame. Quite frankly, not every L2 speaker here actually loves English or cares about slang.


The f-word is being borrowed too much, true. But there is also an opposite problem, particularily for the Czech natives. There have been cases of Czech natives being considered highly impolite, and even being thrown out of restaurants abroad and such, without having any blame but not knowing English and its swearwords. "Fakt jo?" or "Fakt jo!" or "Fakt!" are normal slang expressions with no vulgarity included. It is a kind of a filling word or phrase, meaning "Oh really?", "Definitely", "Absolutely", "I can't believe it" and so on. This is something the non-Czechs couldn't have known of course, but they were definitely too unwilling to have it explained, and accept an apology for misunderstanding out of ignorance without any bad intention, in those situations. So, if you hear a group of young Czech girls use it, it is too early to speak about the decadence of today's world and society, where even the young ladies' behaviour is horrible (btw, have you noticed how often are young girls held to ridiculously high standards, compared to boys, even in countries with mostly equal rights? It applies to swearwords too). You might consider their vocabulary poor, especially if they overuse the expression a lot ,it might still not be proper in some formal situations, but not even their grandmothers could scold them for being vulgar.

Similarly, many Czech, Slovak, or Polish speakers will notice the absolutely innocent Italian or Spanish word "curva". The jokes about it are already old and boring, but there are still people who are oblivious of this. Either about the innocent existence of the word, or about the jokes being as outdated as the dial up internet connection. And Italian or Spanish natives are usually even more surprised about this connection.

And let's not forget the necessity of knowing these terms passively, so that we can react appropriately. And hey, some of those words are sometimes totally fitting the situation. Or it is often possible to be much more rude without using them. And it depends on the context. We couldn't probably find any appropriate context here on the forum, but there are such in the real life. Of course, the judgement of those depends on every individual speaker and listener, and we should be able to make informed choices about this.

So please, let's ask each other about such words, when we need to. Where else can we ask, without either feeling ridiculous or getting stupid responses? I definitely wouldn't trust most internet resources on swearwords, asking reliable sources here is safer. The more that we know each other a bit in this community, and therefore have an idea about each others' biases :-)
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby tommus » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:13 pm

There are lots of so-called quotes about profanity, many of them profane, but I think that the most used version is generally credited to David Keuck.

“Profanity is the common crutch of the conversational cripple.”
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby Theodisce » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:22 pm

tommus wrote:There are lots of so-called quotes about profanity, many of them profane, but I think that the most used version is generally credited to David Keuck.

“Profanity is the common crutch of the conversational cripple.”


I wouldn't perhaps go so far as to ban its use from every sort of human communication. I use swear words only in familiar situations. This is a public forum however.
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Re: On living, and thinking, in two languages at once (essay by Camille Bordas)

Postby Cavesa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:23 pm

tommus wrote:There are lots of so-called quotes about profanity, many of them profane, but I think that the most used version is generally credited to David Keuck.

“Profanity is the common crutch of the conversational cripple.”


Possible. In such a case, I guess I'm sometimes just rolling around in my swearchair. :-D
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