Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

General discussion about learning languages
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MamaPata
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby MamaPata » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:55 pm

brilliantyears wrote:
Jimjam wrote:The first and only one that comes to mind is Russian. I love the sound of the spoken language and had dreams of one day learning it but then I learnt a lot about aspects of Russian law and society which make me not want to travel there being an LGBT individual. This greatly influences my opinions on a language so now I have no desire to learn Russian though if the situation were to someday miraculously change, then I would definitely rethink my stance.

This is exactly what stopped me from being even remotely interested in that area before (whether it's language(s) or travelling). This recently changed (and I have no idea where my sudden interest comes from - the opportunity to travel, mostly?). But even though I personally can remain 'invisible' (unless anyone checks social media in which case I'm in big trouble), it does go against all my principles. :|


That's definitely a complicated one - I was technically out when I was in Russia, but that was also largely through the fact that people tend(ed) to assume I'm straight, so I mostly let them. Which, like you, slightly goes against my principles, but seemed like the best option. I can definitely understand why people rule it out - better safe than sorry. But, if you do decide to pick up Russian or travel there, there is a reasonably strong LGBT community and events in big cities in particular, so let me know and I'll send you a ton of links. :lol: I ended up getting involved with some of that, which was brilliant.
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:09 pm

What I always find interesting is how strongly people associate a language to a nation. In fact, the best way to be part of the in-group and minimize "outsider" perception seems to include at least some language elements.

I've had a heated verbal exchange in one language with a dialect speaker - where suddenly I was the local (and supported by the locals) because my accent wasn't 'wrong' and based on accent alone, the dialect speaker was the outsider at fault.

Maybe thinking about that imperfect overlap help to not have a distaste about a language when local attitudes suck.
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby reineke » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:25 pm

This is a local shop for local people

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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby aokoye » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:16 pm

zenmonkey wrote:What I always find interesting is how strongly people associate a language to a nation. In fact, the best way to be part of the in-group and minimize "outsider" perception seems to include at least some language elements.

I've had a heated verbal exchange in one language with a dialect speaker - where suddenly I was the local (and supported by the locals) because my accent wasn't 'wrong' and based on accent alone, the dialect speaker was the outsider at fault.

Maybe thinking about that imperfect overlap help to not have a distaste about a language when local attitudes suck.

I think a handful of things are going on in this thread. People seemed to be associating languages with religions, languages with countries, languages with governments, and languages with what may be seen as monolithic cultures. I suspect that most if not all of this is going on unconsciously.

I know for me personally, in relation to Russian, Russia is the only country in which Russian is spoken by a large portion of the population that I would even kind of want to visit. Given my personal restrictions around which languages I will consider learning (what countries do I potentially want to visit and what languages are widely spoken there), that means that Russia is the only country in the list of countries where Russian is frequently spoken that I'm going to consider. I'm not considering learning Farsi. That's not because of any aspects of the culture live in Iran or the Iranian government, but because I have no desire to visit any of the countries where it's most commonly spoken by a large percentage of the population.

In terms of the rest of your post, for me things like "will I get physically attacked?" has nothing to do with how well I speak the language and everything to do with how people perceive my physical features. My being a native college educated English speaker isn't going to stop someone in the US from being racist towards me (thought it may change what they say if they know that I'm college educated). Me telling people at a hospital that I'm not cisgender in impeccable Russian/English/Spanish/enter language here isn't going to make them be any less transphobic if they already harbor those tendencies (conscious or not).
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby Cavesa » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:04 pm

Of course.

Three possible cures that I have found:

1.Time. You change and your degree of disgust towards a langauge/nation may improve in the light of new events. I used to hate German, I have found some different things about it since. Once I discovered some actually interesting stuff, not just "don't be stupid, learn German instead of French, that will bring you money", it changed a lot. Btw proving those people wrong (showing them French is possible to learn and pretty useful) was a part of unblocking the way too.

2.Time again. The cultures change too, and extremely quickly these days. A few examples: German tourists in general behave much better in my country (or in Italy, where I had noticed this too) than in the 90's, when they used to be a typical source of arrogance and humiliation, which has become rather rare since. Iran seems at the edge of change, judging by many news about the country that I've read recently, the people seem to be fed up there, so they may change the country as fast as the post communist countries in Central Europe did. Poland has become a much more important economy in Europe than it used to be. Italians are now producing very good popular music, so haters of their 80's no longer need to avoid the language. :-D Perhaps the Arabic countries will finally give a damn about their non-religious PR and we'll get to love Egyptian tv series, find contemporary Arabic writing authors in translation in our bookstores, and there will be a huge net of Avicena institutes (like Cervantes, I couldn't think of another name for my fun example).

3.Focus on something different about the culture. For example, Russian is still one of the main symbols of the occupation that lasted twenty years in my country, actively staying bad at it was actually considered an act of rebelion during those dark times. A symbol of ruined hopes. Of destroyed economy (even before the occupation), and so on. These days, some people either forgot, or decided to overlook it and learn the language for money. And even today's Russia isn't attractive to someone of my nature. I think that suffices, as I am at the edge of discussing politics (it has been history so far, facts). So, you could say I am extremely biased against Russian. Yet, I am beginning to learn it. Why? I have realized that I don't have to speak it in my home country, unless I'll want to for some reason. I can pretend not to know it (unless a life is at stake, of course). But I definitely want to read their sci-fi and similar books. I want to get to know more about the country from various kinds of media, without the filter of translation (and convenient losses in translation). I want to understand my friends from Russia (as there are many immigrants here), and their background, I want to understand better those people whose political views I totally disagree with. Perhaps it may be nice to talk to a friend. Perhaps a patient will desperately need this one day, as I've already heard of a case of dementia, where an old lady forgot Czech completely, having learnt it and been part of our society for decades. I would love to visit Russia one day, especially St. Petersburg and Moscow.

However, a second thing is being mixed to this question here, and that is lack of support of people in our immediate surroundings. That is a different issue, i would say, but my opinion in general: "I'll learn what I want. I've proven you wrong before, and I'll do it again." :-D

I would like to add one thing: I would say strongly disliking some parts of the culture is absolutely normal and will happen, at some point, with any culture and language you get to know well. Are you gonna stop learning a language, once you finally uncover the Dark Side of its culture? Some may call it cultural shock, some may remember the Paris syndrome (those extremely depressive states of some tourists, too eager to see the city of romance), I call it having a brain. You may love French at first, as there is relatively little to trigger such huge negative emotions, that Russian or Arabic wake, but wait till you understand some of the politicians, some of the comments on news websites. It doesn't matter what are your views, you will find something you'll strongly dislike. The same is bound to happen with any language. Hey, Czech is all fun and fantasy books, and Čapek, and beer. But then you get to understand the newspaper.

P.S. as this part of the original post made me smile: was a native rude to you? Natives of many languages have been rude to me! If I had to hate the language because of that, I would get to hating them all at some point, starting from my native one. :-D
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby William Camden » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:57 am

reineke wrote:This is a local shop for local people



Seems like a perfectly normal shop to me. Then strange men in yellow headgear come in...
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby Seneca » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:53 pm

aokoye wrote:Russian is a no go for me. I tend to only spend my time on languages which are spoken in countries that I will potentially go to and there's way too much racism in Russia for me to be safe there. It's a shame because I love most of the major Russian composers and I also love ballet (despite its multiple subcultural flaws that span much of the world).

The parenthetical comment confuses me. Ballet has multiple subcultural flaws? Can you expand on that?
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby aaleks » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:43 pm

I have been thinking for, probably, a couple of days now how to put that in a non-political way, but my English isn't good enough to speak about such serious issues, so I just say - Russia is not a racist country. Historically. There could be individuals whith such views, but not the whole nation in general.
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby aokoye » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:57 pm

Seneca wrote:
aokoye wrote:Russian is a no go for me. I tend to only spend my time on languages which are spoken in countries that I will potentially go to and there's way too much racism in Russia for me to be safe there. It's a shame because I love most of the major Russian composers and I also love ballet (despite its multiple subcultural flaws that span much of the world).

The parenthetical comment confuses me. Ballet has multiple subcultural flaws? Can you expand on that?

Things like what an ideal body is supposed to look like in regards to weight (and height but weight is my main critique) and more often than not skin color. Eating disorders are not uncommon among ballet dancers in the US and I'm sure elsewhere and it's still very uncommon to find company dancers that aren't white (and it's not due to a lack of talent).
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Re: Do people, certain cultures associated with, or certain events prevent you from learning a language?

Postby aokoye » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:05 pm

edit: nothing to see here - potentially inciting accidental rule breaking isn't what anyone needs right now...or ever.
Last edited by aokoye on Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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