Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

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zenmonkey
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:41 pm

reineke wrote:For major western european languages: the target language.

50 years ago and today monolingual "native" grammars were in the required literature at my university along with bilingual and monolingual grammars aimed at foreign students. Even in high school the teacher recommended a monolingual grammar. At university for each language there was a "bible" - a monolingual or bilingual (mother tongue) grammar that the students and professors preferred. Language students would study separately about comparative romance linguistics etc but this was never a major focus for regular students. I got a kick recently reading about Spanish in Italian (for about 30 mins) but I wouldn't have enjoyed it if didn't already have a living, wiggly "base" in romance languages.

Bilingual vs monolingual dictionaries require separate considerations. Both were readily available to students.

All these tools can be equally useful or useless.


So what would you say is the grammar "bible" for German in German for foreign students?
(I tend to use Hammer's which is in English.)
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby William Camden » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:43 pm

Many years ago a Turkish friend recommended a particular Turkish-language grammar for its detail about the language. I forget the author's name but it is fairly famous in Turkey. The information was useless to me at the time, though, as my level of Turkish just was not adequate to "crack" such a book. It probably is adequate now but the language has changed somewhat since it was published (in the 1950s?)
It strikes me that the people suggesting learning Finnish through Hungarian or vice versa because the languages are Uralic are barking up the wrong tree - they probably diverged thousands of years ago. Any discount will be two cents at best. You might just as well point them in the direction of Turkish, which is agglutinative but probably has no genetic relationship with either Finnish or Hungarian. I don't think that would be a good idea either.
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby reineke » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:52 pm

Hammer's German...

Amazon:
"I wrote this review in December of 2006 and it is now November of 2009. This grammar has proven to be indispensable. I have read it cover to cover multiple times now and refer to it consistently as both a student and teacher of German."

German monolingual (for FLLs)
J Buscha - Gerhard Helbig
Deutsche Grammatik: Ein Handbuch für den Ausländerunterricht

Amazon:"Der klassiker unter den daf-grammatiken". The book is listed under required literature at a local university.

German-German
Der kleine Duden

Using German is a cool supplement.
Hueber and Schubert Verlag have some good textbooks and online tools.

I am still relying on television and audiobooks as the main source of language input but if I were to purchase German reference books, I'd look into these titles. German has a lot to offer here so you could easily find competing scriptures.

Don't look at any reference book as a way into the promised land.
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby William Camden » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:02 pm

reineke wrote:Hammer's German...

Amazon:
"I wrote this review in December of 2006 and it is now November of 2009. This grammar has proven to be indispensable. I have read it cover to cover multiple times now and refer to it consistently as both a student and teacher of German."

German monolingual (for FLLs)
J Buscha - Gerhard Helbig
Deutsche Grammatik: Ein Handbuch für den Ausländerunterricht

Amazon:"Der klassiker unter den daf-grammatiken". The book is listed under required literature at a local university.

German-German
Der kleine Duden

Using German is a cool supplement.
Hueber and Schubert Verlag have some good textbooks and online tools.

I am still relying on television and audiobooks as the main source of language input but if I were to purchase German reference books, I'd look into these titles. German has a lot to offer here so you could easily find competing scriptures.

Don't look at any reference book as a way into the promised land.


Duden and probably also Hueber have good information in German on grammar and syntax. I like Langenscheidt's Deutsch Als Fremdsprache which gives some grammar information although it is basically a monolingual dictionary for learners of German.
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby reineke » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:25 pm

Lang... Lang... the guys behind those yellow dictionaries are worth checking out.

Among thw required literature at another university I found:
Helbig/Buscha, Deutsche Grammatik, Langenscheidt.
Helbig/Buscha, Übungsgrammatik Deutsch, Langenscheidt.

Mental note: Helbig/Buscha
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby William Camden » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:42 pm

In fact to add to the foregoing, once your German is good enough to be able to use a monolingual dictionary, I think that Deutsch Als Fremdsprache would take care of most of your German-language-learning needs.
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby William Camden » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:45 pm

reineke wrote:Lang... Lang... the guys behind those yellow dictionaries are worth checking out.

Among thw required literature at another university I found:
Helbig/Buscha, Deutsche Grammatik, Langenscheidt.
Helbig/Buscha, Übungsgrammatik Deutsch, Langenscheidt.

Mental note: Helbig/Buscha


There are patches of yellow on my desk and my bookshelf as I write this, and they are not spilled mustard, but Langenscheidt.
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:07 pm

Thanks guys - good input -

Langenscheidt's Deutsch Als Fremdsprache - I have dozens of their books for German and other languages (from German) but not this one, will look into it.

Duden - Der kleine Duden - looked into it, didn't feel it was particularly focused on 'Fremdsprache' - The big Duden is tempting.

Busch - Helbig - Hadn't heard of this one!

reineke wrote:Don't look at any reference book as a way into the promised land.


Oh, I certainly don't but I'm at the point, living in Germany, I am slowly moving away from non-German sources and was curious at to what might be "the bible in german for foreigners" and if I had missed it.

And as I look over to my German section... it's a mess.
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zenmonkey
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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:18 pm

I may have a reference book problem...

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Re: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language

Postby lichtrausch » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:39 pm

zenmonkey wrote:I may have a reference book problem...

The Decipherment of Linear B

Nice.
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