Optimal amount of private classes a day during immersion

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zenmonkey
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Re: Optimal amount of private classes a day during immersion

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:59 pm

alexidsa wrote:What is optimal amount of private classes during immersion in your opinion? Does it differ from language to language? Does it depend on other factors?


That animal was never born. Optimal depends on the person, place on your path, goals, environment, etc...

I learned French with forced immersion when I first moved to France - if someone spoke in another language I would leave the room. I was a student in graduate school, so I spent 4-8 hours of direct French contact minimum per day. No books, radio or other content in any language other than French except for science articles from research journals. Still took me six months to move from a1 (false beginner) to b2+. No Anki, no assimil, no classes, just a Becherelle, a dictionary, a notebook and a French girlfriend. Number of hours of private classes = 0.

Moved to Germany. Took private classes, 6 months without any method, then 1 hr per week, then a month of 3 hrs per day, then back to my tutor. Maybe 100 hrs total of classes :o . Then last 3 years, pure self-learning without classes - 8 years to a B2+ level. Never went full immersion.

Can you replace as much English input by French input as possible?
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Re: Optimal amount of private classes a day during immersion

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:05 pm

smallwhite wrote:
alexidsa wrote:What is optimal amount of private classes during immersion in your opinion?

Optimum is only relevant if time and costs are significantly limited (really tight), or if for some reason you need a high benefit-cost ratio. If not, as long as you are still benefitting from classes (return is positive and not negative), you should take more classes, even if you're not benefitting as much from the 10th hour compared to the 2nd hour. Are you really after "most bang for the buck" or are you actually after "as much French learned as possible"?


On the other hand, if the question is - I spend 12 hrs a day actively learning - how much of that should be classes and how much self learning/study - the answer might be closer to 1:2 ratio of class time to study time.
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Re: Optimal amount of private classes a day during immersion

Postby alexidsa » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:47 pm

Stelle wrote:Just to add - I think that there's a big difference between four hours of private tutoring face-to-face and four hours of tutoring via Skype. Face-to-face, it's much easier to incorporate movement and variety, which the brain craves.

That's a very good point. The guy who took 8 classes a day was practicing with people in real life (mostly in parks). It's harder to manage but may be worth it as it feels more natural. I actually noticed that skype classes with video are often less tiring then ones without.
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Re: Optimal amount of private classes a day during immersion

Postby whatiftheblog » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:44 am

Granted, this was 12 years ago, but I quite enjoyed my French language school and thought it well worth the money (I think the whole thing was around $3k). I had 32 hours of class a week in a group of about 6-10, depending on the class, all of whom were at the same level, so it was well-calibrated, and 8 of those hours were "thematic" based on electives we could pick. I think I took current affairs (duh), literature, business, and art or something like that, the classes were actually really well-organized, I was pleasantly surprised. I stayed in the dorm, though, not with a family, which turned out to have probably been a good thing, since all of my friends who stayed with families had variously awful experiences, and the one girl who didn't ended up just having the hosts' apartment to herself. I definitely made the B2-C1 jump that summer, though I let it stagnate and recede a bit over the years before getting myself together (don't make this mistake!).

Separately, in your case, OP, when you say you're exhausted from 4 hours a day, I wonder if it isn't a matter of the materials you're using. Where would you say you are with your French right now? There are other ways to incorporate the language into your life without wearing yourself out, and they're fairly low-impact - a word or conjugation game / online quiz, short funny vlogs, Twitter, blogs on topics that actually interest you. So long as it's engaging and can hold your attention, it'll do. Even just the news, and even if on in the background, can help. Try to switch things up and see what happens.

ETA: I'll also add, for what you can expect if you continue towards the advanced levels, that I credit a combination of gripping campaign coverage (6 months by that point) and my trip to Paris (5 days) with the C1->C2 jump I apparently made (so I am told). The conference I attended in Paris lasted 3 of those 5 days, and by day 2 I was flying, but this is also largely because I was living my actual dream, talking about my favorite thing in the whole world with people I usually watch on TV on my laptop in Washington, so there were definitely points where I was so fully absorbed by the conversation I'd entirely forget I was speaking French. This is despite being repeatedly interrupted in Russian (yes, we are truly everywhere), English (obviously), and Spanish (heh, buena suerte with that); still managed to dive right back in. These weren't classes, obviously, but I really can't say enough good things about approaching a language through material that stimulates you thematically.

ETA 2: There are also MOOCs in French, including on Coursera, edX, funmooc and a few others. You can do them at your own pace so long as you sign up for the class before it closes; you don't have to follow their schedule unless you want a certificate. The main benefit is that, at least with Coursera, you have the full package: video you can slow down, a full transcript for each lecture, and interaction in group discussions, if you so wish.
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Re: Optimal amount of private classes a day during immersion

Postby blaurebell » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:19 am

alexidsa wrote:
blaurebell wrote:My experience in a Spanish immersion school was that it's pretty impossible *not* to learn the language at 3h a day instruction, even if you spend the rest of the day on the beach.

It might be true starting from decent B1 (closer to B2) when you can have natural conversations on the streets but before that I'm not convinced it's true. I mean, for sure, you "learn" some things at the school but you don't practice speaking a lot (and you speak with other students instead of native speakers). I've seen students who have taken intensive courses for several months and their speaking ability was quite disappointing (though they did know a lot of grammar and vocabulary).


Well, I'm living proof that it works, I was on holidays, I didn't push too hard and still learned Spanish despite having quite a tan that year :D I often did my homework on the beach back then and I only started to speak a lot outside of school after about 3 months. As for speaking ability: My parents came to visit me after about 3 months and I ran circles around my dad who had been learning Spanish for like 5 years. Long conversations fatigued me a lot still, but the teachers kind of encouraged me to try the B2 exam, because they were sure I could have passed. I didn't feel like having exams during my holidays though. That said, low B2, speaking with non-natives a lot definitely leaves traces. I still have to get rid of some of the fossilised mistakes from back then, which is frankly a pain.

alexidsa wrote:
blaurebell wrote:For a week I added a 1h one-on-one class of additional conversation because I was at a breakthrough point. It was too straining and also not exactly cheap, so I dropped back to 3h

I suppose you took a private class at your school (they're ridiculously expensive). If yes, why not online? In my experience the rate schools charge for groups classes is pretty much equal to the rate for private classes online.


Yes, they are expensive and nowadays I wouldn't take them anymore. This was before italki or even Duolingo existed. I'd neither choose an immersion school now nor would I even attempt immersion before I reach B2. It usually just creates delayed grammar torture later on. And once I reach B2 I might as well do a real course in the country where I'm surrounded by native speakers.
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