Countries with the Best Foreign Language Education

[DaveBee]

To be honest I actually think that most people don't even need an education and are better off with the school system being as useless as it is. Even the best education doesn't make people happier or more fulfilled and the unhappiest people are usually those who understand this world too well. Don't forget, ignorance is bliss! I would have gladly exchanged my intellectual capabilities for a disposition to be happy even with "my limitations".

The science shows that there is no correlation between education level and happiness. Knowing more or less will not make you more or less happy. Your high levels of education or knowledge are not likely to be the cause of your unhappiness, nor is the lower educational attainment of your friends likely to be the cause of their happiness. "Ignorance is bliss" may or may not have truth to it (I'm leaning more towards the latter), but you should keep in mind another saying: "the grass is always greener on the other side".

Source: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents ... n_may_not/

I think this is a very narrow perspective. Of course someone that know's a lot could be happy or not, likewise with someone that does not know a lot. I still feel that education can indeed be linked to higher levels of happiness. In the UK, for example, the current fees for university are around £9, 250 per year. The average degree course will be four years. There are many professions that legally require you to first go to uni. If I wanted to have a certain profession that required I first go to uni (I always have), I have no option but to get myself at least 50-60k in debt (We get interest on loans, because the current government loves us so much).
If, after all of that, I can no longer pursue said profession, and would rather something else, the likelihood is, I just would not be able to, unless I would prefer the same level of debt on top of the current one. In which case I would definitely not be living a particular happy life. I remember some studies being done in the UK, asking how many people were actually happy in their profession and the vast majority said no. A lot were actually depressed, but when asked whether they would change or why they have not changed, it was because of the debt they would be in. So a lot of people end up staying in a job they hate for their entire lives because they simply cannot change it.

In countries such as Germany or Finland, where university education is free. I can fully imagine that the numbers stuck in professions that they dislike are far fewer, because the option is there for them to retrain, even if they liked their current profession. So I think the correlation between happiness and education is linked.

I believe there's a link between happiness and wealth/income to a certain point. Where income can increase happiness, but we also have an individual default happiness range that we can't alter.

(I think I got that from the Positive Psychology Center publications/interviews)

[blaurebell]

To be honest I actually think that most people don't even need an education and are better off with the school system being as useless as it is. Even the best education doesn't make people happier or more fulfilled and the unhappiest people are usually those who understand this world too well. Don't forget, ignorance is bliss! I would have gladly exchanged my intellectual capabilities for a disposition to be happy even with "my limitations".

The science shows that there is no correlation between education level and happiness. Knowing more or less will not make you more or less happy. Your high levels of education or knowledge are not likely to be the cause of your unhappiness, nor is the lower educational attainment of your friends likely to be the cause of their happiness. "Ignorance is bliss" may or may not have truth to it (I'm leaning more towards the latter), but you should keep in mind another saying: "the grass is always greener on the other side".

Source: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents ... n_may_not/

Interesting study, but not exactly a surprising result for England of all places. Is it even possible at all to be happy in a place with such a low living standard even among the middle class and so much rain, cold, gloom and inequality? I never felt as poor as in England, even though I never had lots of money and lived in many rough neighbourhoods due to financial reasons. In England it really gets to you. People even with a "normal" income are forced to share their house with too many people. Most people eat horrible food in general because they can't afford anything else and even expensive ingredients taste like nothing because it's all imported and cold-stored. Most people skimp on heating too, if they even have proper heating at all. There is no insulation or double glazing and there is mould in almost every house at the coast. And things get worse up north. In Germany even someone on benefits doesn't live as badly as most middle class folks in England. If you have to be rich to live even at an acceptable living standard, how could anyone be happy?

"Other surprising results from the study included high levels of mental wellbeing among Afro-Caribbeans, especially men."

Seems more like an unhappiness study rather than a happiness study to me.

[jeff_lindqvist]

I would guess this part is not a priority in the tight budget of public libraries. And the librarians have no clue about language learning.

Off the top of my head... Our library (where I've been working since 2006) has teaching material (textbook+audio) for Swedish (as a second language), Danish, Icelandic, English, German, Dutch, Romanian, Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Serbian, Croatian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Greek, Persian, Arabic, Swahili, Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish, Chinese and probably something else.

If you include courses without audio - you can add Norwegian, Irish, Greek, Latin, Romani, Meänkieli, Saamic, Japanese, Esperanto and who knows what else. Dictionaries are available in most of these languages plus a number of others.

There aren't many polyglots. We (four-five of us) only speak Swedish, English, German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Irish, Lithuanian, Persian, Arabic, Urdu/Hindi, Punjabi, Esperanto and basic Chinese.

It's embarassing to admit that we don't have a clue about language learning.

[tarvos]

That's only because YOU run the bloody thing.

[Ingaræð]

If I wanted to have a certain profession that required I first go to uni (I always have), I have no option but to get myself at least 50-60k in debt (We get interest on loans, because the current government loves us so much).

Strictly speaking, it's not a debt: it's a rudimentary calculation/prediction of how much 'Graduate Tax'' you might pay prior to retirement, which hasn't taken age or salary into account. It's very different from the overdraft on your student bank account, a mortgage or any other financial loan, where if you don't pay what is owed, the bank will come knocking and threaten you with repossession. Those are the debts you should worry about.

As to governments and interest, Gordon Brown really screwed over students by raising the minimum interest rate to 0%. If memory serves, the NUS wasn't particularly vocal about that, for some reason...

And for something on-topic: I suspect the countries with the best foreign language education are more likely to be those where general education as a whole is of a high standard. The UK today is arguably not one of those countries. There was a 15 year-old Norwegian exchange student in my A-Level Physics class (usually age 16-18). I'd be flabbergasted if there was a reverse situation in any country.

[WalkingAlone13]

If I wanted to have a certain profession that required I first go to uni (I always have), I have no option but to get myself at least 50-60k in debt (We get interest on loans, because the current government loves us so much).

Strictly speaking, it's not a debt: it's a rudimentary calculation/prediction of how much 'Graduate Tax'' you might pay prior to retirement, which hasn't taken age or salary into account. It's very different from the overdraft on your student bank account, a mortgage or any other financial loan, where if you don't pay what is owed, the bank will come knocking and threaten you with repossession. Those are the debts you should worry about.

As to governments and interest, Gordon Brown really screwed over students by raising the minimum interest rate to 0%. If memory serves, the NUS wasn't particularly vocal about that, for some reason...

And for something on-topic: I suspect the countries with the best foreign language education are more likely to be those where general education as a whole is of a high standard. The UK today is arguably not one of those countries. There was a 15 year-old Norwegian exchange student in my A-Level Physics class (usually age 16-18). I'd be flabbergasted if there was a reverse situation in any country.

A large amount of student debts were sold off to private companies, and some of those unlucky enough to be included in that have already had people knocking on the door to reclaim that money. I am sure they would love to talk to you about how their debts are not real debts to you in your own definition of what constitutes a debt or not, and how they clearly have nothing to worry about. It is all semantics after all. Which, a debt is by definition something that you owe, if you are borrowing money that you do not have the luxury of having in your possession, it is quite clearly a debt.

[Ingaræð]

A large amount of student debts were sold off to private companies, and some of those unlucky enough to be included in that have already had people knocking on the door to reclaim that money. I am sure they would love to talk to you about how their debts are not real debts to you in your own definition of what constitutes a debt or not, and how they clearly have nothing to worry about. It is all semantics after all. Which, a debt is by definition something that you owe, if you are borrowing money that you do not have the luxury of having in your possession, it is quite clearly a debt.

1) There's no need to be rude, or put words in my mouth.

2) I am in the group of people whose loans have/are being sold off. As I recall, the attempts at reclaiming large amounts of money arose from an administrative error, which was eventually corrected. Unfortunately, it didn't mean that sorting out the issue was any less of a hassle for those involved. It doesn't change the fact that student loans do not function like traditional loans.

You might find it useful to look into what Martin Lewis says about student loans. He follows the situation pretty closely and explains things quite well.

[Cavesa]

I would guess this part is not a priority in the tight budget of public libraries. And the librarians have no clue about language learning.

Off the top of my head... Our library (where I've been working since 2006) has teaching material (textbook+audio) for Swedish (as a second language), Danish, Icelandic, English, German, Dutch, Romanian, Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Serbian, Croatian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Greek, Persian, Arabic, Swahili, Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish, Chinese and probably something else.

If you include courses without audio - you can add Norwegian, Irish, Greek, Latin, Romani, Meänkieli, Saamic, Japanese, Esperanto and who knows what else. Dictionaries are available in most of these languages plus a number of others.

There aren't many polyglots. We (four-five of us) only speak Swedish, English, German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Irish, Lithuanian, Persian, Arabic, Urdu/Hindi, Punjabi, Esperanto and basic Chinese.

It's embarassing to admit that we don't have a clue about language learning.

My apologies, I shouldn't have generalized. It was a note based on my experience with a mix of czech and french libraries of the municipal type (not specialized in languages, not university libraries). Their problem was either in general too small selection even for priority language learners, or totally wrong selection not making much sense. such as having only one course from a series, and it happened to be the second volume, a few similarily chosen courses, all at least ten years old, some didictionaries, perhaps a grammar. but definitely not enough to put together a whole path for a learner without a budget to learn a highly demanded language. and in the info documents for learners or when asked, the libraries don't see it as a priority, from my experience.

i totally admit my experience is not enough to generalize, but i believe it suffient to show at quite a common problem. the french libraries have an advantage, assimil is not that hard to find out and include, and it can suffice to many learners to get going. but in general, it seems to me that libraries (of the local or municipal type) tend to underestimate this kind of service and prefer to put their limited budget for new books into bestsellers.

i don't expect them to have a whole huge room for every language imaginable. i just think that it should be possible to learn the few most important cv languages in just from library sources and even in a small town's library

sorry about eventual typoes, i am on phone but wanted to apologize asap

[bpasseri]

I would guess this part is not a priority in the tight budget of public libraries. And the librarians have no clue about language learning.

Off the top of my head... Our library (where I've been working since 2006) has teaching material (textbook+audio) for Swedish (as a second language), Danish, Icelandic, English, German, Dutch, Romanian, Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Serbian, Croatian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Greek, Persian, Arabic, Swahili, Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish, Chinese and probably something else.

If you include courses without audio - you can add Norwegian, Irish, Greek, Latin, Romani, Meänkieli, Saamic, Japanese, Esperanto and who knows what else. Dictionaries are available in most of these languages plus a number of others.

There aren't many polyglots. We (four-five of us) only speak Swedish, English, German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Irish, Lithuanian, Persian, Arabic, Urdu/Hindi, Punjabi, Esperanto and basic Chinese.

It's embarassing to admit that we don't have a clue about language learning.

My apologies, I shouldn't have generalized. It was a note based on my experience with a mix of czech and french libraries of the municipal type (not specialized in languages, not university libraries). Their problem was either in general too small selection even for priority language learners, or totally wrong selection not making much sense. such as having only one course from a series, and it happened to be the second volume, a few similarily chosen courses, all at least ten years old, some didictionaries, perhaps a grammar. but definitely not enough to put together a whole path for a learner without a budget to learn a highly demanded language. and in the info documents for learners or when asked, the libraries don't see it as a priority, from my experience.

i totally admit my experience is not enough to generalize, but i believe it suffient to show at quite a common problem. the french libraries have an advantage, assimil is not that hard to find out and include, and it can suffice to many learners to get going. but in general, it seems to me that libraries (of the local or municipal type) tend to underestimate this kind of service and prefer to put their limited budget for new books into bestsellers.

i don't expect them to have a whole huge room for every language imaginable. i just think that it should be possible to learn the few most important cv languages in just from library sources and even in a small town's library

sorry about eventual typoes, i am on phone but wanted to apologize asap

That's absolutely been my experience in the U.S. Usually even for Spanish, French, and German the resources are pretty scarce; dictionaries, ____ for Dummies, etc. For anything besides that you're lucky for the odd pocket phrase dictionary or "survival guide." Interestingly, poorer districts tend to have better language resources, as the richer a place is the more likely it is to be completely monolingual, and all anyone is really looking for in terms of language learning are possibly a few phrases for a cruise (and even that would be seen as being overly worldy, 98% of people would never think twice about language even if going to the most exotic of places. It's pretty easy to forget other languages even exist in many places in the U.S., and it's pretty much assumed that any hotel or resort anywhere in the world is going to be able to cater to English speakers, whether or not that's true.

[Cavesa]

Yes, but I can understand that in the US a bit more than in european countries. I think it should be more the common knowledge, that public libraries are just as much a part of the "national education" as public schools are.

The Czech Republic sometimes gets publicity for having one of the biggest networks of public libraries in the world, which is great. It is true, that there is usually a library in even very small towns. The problem is that they get closed quite often, as they are sometimes considered unimportant in the age of the internet, so a town cutting budget seizes the opportunity. But the internet still isn't enough. Just look at all the people around this community, who use internet a lot, yet almost noone learning a language successfully has done it without any book based tools (unless we count pdf versions of those, ok). And the second problem is, that the libraries choose new books by the simple key "what will the most people want to read", not "what is a gap in our service, covering of which would benefit this or that group of our readers".

A public library is the second most accessible resource to vast majority of the people, right after school. And the first for everyone after finishing their secondary education. It is wrong that they are not taken into account much, when it comes to judging or comparing education systems. This is the 21st century, the era of life long learning. The idea that you invest in your education while you are young (you and your parents), get a job, and stay there or at least in the same field for the next fourty years is simply outdated. Libraries are needed more than ever, both their digital component (some libraries are honestly trying to find ways to help their users get oriented on the internet and find useful resources, which is great), and the traditional one.

It is great there are libraries like the one Jeff works at, and I don't doubt there are many. But if we looked at the relative numbers, I would say those are a tiny minority. And in the same areas, where "language learning poorer" libraries are, the bookstores aren't that much better either, from my (although limited) experience. (I can't know the whole world or even the continent (or every town in just one small country), of course, but I make it a point to visit bookstores and, whenever possible, libraries in most places I visit for long enough to make such a visit. It tells me so much about the people! )

That is the problem. Language courses are treated like luxury items. And I am afraid a part of the modern style (those tons of photos, colours everywhere, necessity of supplemental grammars, workbooks, and so on) is making them 1.cost more money than less "colourful" and more complete books would 2.seem even more expensive than they are. That may be a part of the problem for the libraries, for some schools, for self-teaching learners without much experience.