New auxlang: Atlas

[Rodiniye]

Having a section for example sentences/phrases in the dictionary would be great, too. For many words it's probably not that big of a deal (especially nouns/adjectives), but it'd still be nice to have as a reference, especially for the prepositions and other words which are likely to cause some confusion. Keeping an up-to-date database of the latest list of roots and perhaps an editable online dictionary similar to tommus' might make things easier to keep track of, too.[/quote

I will work on that soon. Unfortunately this week is extremely busy for me (recurrent exams at work) but I will try to have it ready asap.

Thanks!

These comparisons are themselves adjectives, so they also should all end in -i.

"hen", etc. are not adjectives. They are classified as modifiers, but they are more related to adverbs than to adjectives. So because some adverbs have fixed forms, this would be another example of them. See how as well "hen" etc. are placed in front of the modified word.

As for "dago" and "mem", I think it relates to one of your previous "complaints". "dago" indicates "same", same as "as" in English: "as tall as you". Then you have the word "mem", which is the root for "similarity". So one thing is the grammar construction for similarity, and another different thing is the concept itself ("mem").

The fact that "mem" is "similarity" and "men" is "less" is accidental. it is similar in french "même" and "moins", and in other latin languages from which these words are derived.

I know there is some fear that Atlas will look ugly if there is too many hyphens. However, I feel that all derived words in Atlas need to be hyphenized, including 2-component words. That completely solves the parsing problem. That completely solves the pronunciation problem. That greatly increases to ease of understanding derived words. I would much prefer to see more hyphens knowing that it was making Atlas much easier, and thus making the hyphenated derived words a beautiful sight to see and use.

Interesting point rasied here. I understand that words with more than 2 roots might be difficult to decypher/identify by readers, and that is why "-" is there for them.

However, are you sure about two roots together without hyphen being a problem for automatic translation? German for instance has got very long compound words without hyphens and I have worked with translation programs and it seems to have no difficulties.

I think hypens are great in order to identify long words, but too much of them I think could be counterproductive, as long as it does not affect it translation capablities (and I insist here, I am pretty sure it should not?).

AtlasPopupDictionaryV6.0

I will include that too, as soon as I can!

Thanks for the hard work.

[crush]

I think a word with two roots not having a hyphen is fine, many languages do this (like Esperanto) and it seems to work pretty well. The issue as you said is with parsing it, but even then, assuming the root words don't have overlaps (ie. something like 'block' and 'lock'), with only 5-600 roots, splitting the word by just searching through all roots until it finds a match should be ok. In speech you won't have the hyphens, though if you'll have a double stress (small stress on the first root and main stress on the last root) then adding the hyphen might make sense. I seem to recall some Esperanto dictionaries for example breaking down unknown words into their roots. Either way is fine for me, i realize that hyphenating them will make it easier for a computer to parse them, but i think when you learn the roots a human won't have too much trouble with it.

I'll also check out the new dictionary

[tommus]

My concerns about a computer parsing Atlas derived words were unfounded. It was a very interesting process to figure out how to parse the 2-component words (those without any hyphens). But it seems to work extremely well. I have yet to find a word that the popup dictionary cannot now parse correctly (assuming of course that the components exist in the Dictionary and the Grammar). If a derived word can be parsed in more than one way, the popup dictionary will show these extra ways. Besides helping the user, this feature can be used to check if a new derived word has only one possible correct parsing.

I have updated the Atlas PopUp Dictionary to Version 7.0. It does the parsing, plus some more improvements such as the display of grammatical information, parsing of articles and demonstrative Determiners (such as al- "the", leo- "this, etc.) Ironically, it does not yet parse derived words of more than two components (i.e., those with hyphens. But that will probably be in Version 8.0.

I have included some practice words that automatically load into the text area, along with the Ugly Tree story. We need a new short story that has been written with the current version of the Atlas Grammar. Some of the words in the Ugly Tree are not valid anymore.

Atlas PopUp Dictionary Version 7.0

[Rodiniye]

Thanks for your comments again! Only one thing to point out:

(such as al- "the", leo- "this, etc.)

(Remember the demonstrative is "le-" now (te-, le-, ce- to be precise) . When not modifying a noun, all the other morpheme additions have been removed as suggested (part of the latest changes), apart from the plural when needed ("te" is "this" and "ten" is "these").

So new entry:

http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/

I explain the latest changes, have included Tommus dictionary and included the News section! starting with Froome winning the Tour de France. News will be short texts updated regularly.

Lots of work coming up! Flying to Paris tomorrow for work related issues. Hope the hotel-loliness gives me some time to work on the future updates, especially updating the Atlas texts with the latest changes.

As always, any support, feedback or advice is hugely appreciated. If anyone wants to get involved, drop me an e-mail (atlasbahase@gmail.com), PM me or just write it here.

Atlas is one month old today and I think we have been able to make it simpler and better. The blog is receiving visits consantly with many people coming back, which I think is extremely good news.

Thanks!

[tommus]

(Remember the demonstrative is "le-" now (te-, le-, ce- to be precise) . When not modifying a noun, all the other morpheme additions have been removed as suggested (part of the latest changes), apart from the plural when needed ("te" is "this" and "ten" is "these").

I am uncertain about the current state of the demonstrative. The new section in the Grammar is short, and a lot is left to the reader to figure out. I am not sure just how many there are, which ones can be plurals (all?), which ones can modify a noun (with the hyphen I assume), and which ones can act as adverbs (all?) and which ones can act as pronouns (all?). I think I have some of the deleted ones in my list. I think this supports my suggestion that these kinds of "small words" (prepositions, conjunctions, demonstratives, etc) each needs to have its own "definitive" and "complete" list. I have such lists. Each of them is in the "files" section of the PopUpDictionary application. Here is the list that I call the ATENArticlesDemonstrativeDetermininators.txt. I expect my lists need to be reviewed and corrected.

al the [(definite article)]
te this [(close to speaker), now (time)]
le this, that ([close to listener), recent (time)]
ce that [(far from all), far away (time)]
tea this [(animal pronoun)]
teo this ([plant pronoun)]
teu this ([concrete pronoun)]
tee this ([abstract pronoun)]
lea this, that [(animal close to listener), recent (animal time)]
leo this, that [(plant close to listener), recent (plant time)]
leu this, that [(concrete close to listener), recent (concrete time)]
lee this, that [(abstract close to listener), recent (abstract time)]
cea that [(animal far from all), far away (animal time)]
ceo that [(plant far from all), far away (plant time)]
ceu that [(concrete far from all), far away (concrete time)]
cee that [(abstract far from all), far away (abstract time)]
ten these [(close to speaker), now (time)]
len these, those ([close to listener), recent (time)]
cen these [(far from all), far away (time)]
tean these [(animal pronoun)]
teon these ([plant pronoun)]
teun these ([concrete pronoun)]
teen these ([abstract pronoun)]
lean these, those [(animal close to listener), recent (animal time)]
leon these, those [(plant close to listener), recent (plant time)]
leun these, those [(concrete close to listener), recent (concrete time)]
leen these, those [(abstract close to listener), recent (abstract time)]
cean these [(animal far from all), far away (animal time)]
ceon these [(plant far from all), far away (plant time)]
ceun these [(concrete far from all), far away (concrete time)]
ceen these [(abstract far from all), far away (abstract time)]

the News section! starting with Froome winning the Tour de France. News will be short texts updated regularly.

Great! I think such regular news is extremely important.

As promised, I have developed Version 8.0 of the popup dictionary. It can now parse 2-component derived words and also multi-component derived words where the components beyond two are separated by hyphens. And as of just now, I have added the news article about Froome in the default text that comes up when the application is started.

Atlas PopUp Dictionary Version 8.0

[tommus]

I read the news in the Atlas language!!! I used version 8 of the popup dictionary and it worked quite well. There were some words it did not know. I will have to study those to determine the reasons. Having the news is very exciting.

Random comments:

What is the adjective for Atlas? (Atlasian?) For example, to use like this: I read the news in Atlasian (or in the Atlasian language).

I think there will be a need for bilingual (translation) dictionaries that contain large numbers of words, even though Atlas has a limited number of roots, and words are built from those. The reason that large dictionaries will be needed is this: In my popup dictionary, I have the noun entry "malca" for boy/girl, plus the derivatives. malcata is girl, but it appears in the dictionary as boy, girl [female animal noun]. malcera is boy but it appears in the dictionary as boy, girl [male animal noun]. Plurals are the same. malceras is boys but the dictionary doesn't say boys. It says boy, girl [plural male animal noun]. If we are going to have a computer dictionary, or a Google Translate, especially to do sentences as opposed to just single words, we need a dictionary that has malcata-girl, malcera=boy, malceras=boys, etc. We need cow, cows, bull, bulls. We need a one-to-one correspondence dictionary for many many Atlas words including common derived words. The way I am doing it now in the popup dictionary (and the way it is done in the official Atlas Dictionary) is an interim solution but eventually a full one-to-one correspondence dictionary will be required for each language pair. Some of it can be created by computers. Much of it will need to be done by people. And the dictionaries will have to be bi-directional (example AT-EN and EN-AT).

But so far so good. Rodiniye has done an amazing amount of work in a very short period of time!

[tommus]

Below is my translation of the Atlas article about Froome winning the Tour de France. I mostly used the popup dictionary, with help from the Atlas Grammar and Vocabulary.

It would be very useful if Rodiniye could add-in the parts I had trouble with, and explain how the more difficult derived words were constructed.

.....................................................................................................................................
Froome vincet Tour de France vornak de ze ta ze varnes vequgan, ze abqugez “li vor va piat nianen”.

Froome has won (the) fourth Tour de France (of, that) he and he warns (ve?) players, he (ab?) will compete? "during four or five years".
.....................
Froome, 32, esis ancuni de segire de abquge zu shedon 40.

Froome, 32, is (ready? anusi?) (of, that) continuation (of, that) (ab?) competition to (including group of years?) to (shedon? age? approach?) 40.
....................
Al-vince de Froome e Tour de France eset hen kalzeiti, ze varnet andar u xen: “wi wepiacis de ese i te u weili 4 va 5 nianen, ma ez verem nai esez hesani bi de u te”.

The win of Froome in (the) Tour de France was (hen?) (kalzeiti?), he warned others in when: "I would like that be at this in next 4 or 5 years, but it (verem? true with?) not will be easy more of? on this?.
.....................
Froome, de kalzeitem vervais-snaket kaqbersamu novi zu 2020, elezzet zu al-habaran.

Froome, who (kalzeitem?) true indicates sign age (kaq?) together again (group?) 2020, explained (why 2 z's?) (in? group?) the report.
......................
Em vor vincen zu te, Froome esis 32, ete memi de spanii Miguel Indurain, ze quet al-surhone de piat vincen u xen u 1995.

With four wins (up until now?), Froome is 32, the same age as Spaniard Miguel Indurain, he takes the (sur?) occurrence of five wins (in when on)? since? 1995.
.......................
Al-werxa zui zohi de vince al-Tour eset Fermin Lambot u 1992 ta ze eset 36.

The sport oldest winner of the Tour de France was Fermin Lambot in 1992 and he was 36.
.......................
Hou letzi vincen u 2013, 15 ta 16, Froome vodizet, ez eset zui sloqi de vince Tour: “ta onar niane wien novmettis reuxen novi mux”.

After last wins in 2013, 15 and 16, Froome before said, it was most difficult to win: "And each year we again put situations new must.
..........................................

English Source

[crush]

[...]I have updated the Atlas PopUp Dictionary to Version 7.0. It does the parsing, plus some more improvements such as the display of grammatical information, parsing of articles and demonstrative Determiners (such as al- "the", leo- "this, etc.) [...]

Great work! I'm sure being able to tell if a new word has multiple parsings will be really useful! I think some of the words, when combined with prepositions, don't parse correctly though. Eg. "ancuni" doesn't get parsed, i assume that is an- (on?) and cun- (choose). The dictionary gives the meaning as "decided", though not sure how it's different from "licuni". "abquge" is also not parsed, but i can't find any mention of "ab" in the grammar, i assumed it was a preposition. A lot of words have it, but i can't find mention of it. And "vince" (or rather "al-vince") gets parsed into vinc-e. Some other verb tenses get parsed that way, too, like "varn-et" (from the news article). And another issue is the -em ending for adverbs: verem -> 'true + -ly" instead of "true + with".

Also, are the "intensifiers" include? (hen -> very, sia -> super/hyper, zui -> -est)

The dictionary makes it very easy to get through the texts, i think

[...]So new entry:

http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/

I explain the latest changes, have included Tommus dictionary and included the News section! starting with Froome winning the Tour de France. News will be short texts updated regularly. [...]

Would it be possible to provide a version number/date on the grammar/dictionary files? It'd make it easier to keep track of and also easier to make sure we've got the latest version.

Also, adding bookmarks to the PDF/making the table of contents clickable would make using it as a reference much easier

And in the dictionary, is "riki" supposed to be "reach" or "rich"? I assume it's supposed to be "rich".

Posting more news articles and texts like that would be great, coupled with the dictionary it's a great learning tool! Btw, "ete memi de spanii Miguel Indurain", why is it "spanii" instead of "(al-)spania" or even "Miguel Indurain de/ot Spanidexu"? There were also quite a few words i couldn't find in the dictionary/grammar in that text.


EDIT: Missed tommus' last post:

.....................................................................................................................................
Froome vincet Tour de France vornak de ze ta ze varnes vequgan, ze abqugez “li vor va piat nianen”.

Froome has won (the) fourth Tour de France (of, that) he and he warns (ve?) players, he (ab?) will compete? "during four or five years".

I'd say "de ze" means "his".
abqugez - i've seen this 'ab' word all over the dictionary, i assumed it was something like "play on, continue playing".

.....................
Froome, 32, esis ancuni de segire de abquge zu shedon 40.

Froome, 32, is (ready? anusi?) (of, that) continuation (of, that) (ab?) competition to (including group of years?) to (shedon? age? approach?) 40.

an-cun- = on + choose, ancune is in the dictionary as "decision", so i'd say "decided, determined"
de + -e = English infinitive, ancuni de segire de abquge: determined to continue to play
shedon = almost (under the adverbs section of the grammar)

....................
Al-vince de Froome e Tour de France eset hen kalzeiti, ze varnet andar u xen: “wi wepiacis de ese i te u weili 4 va 5 nianen, ma ez verem nai esez hesani bi de u te”.

The win of Froome in (the) Tour de France was (hen?) (kalzeiti?), he warned others in when: "I would like that be at this in next 4 or 5 years, but it (verem? true with?) not will be easy more of? on this?.

hen = very (p. 6 of the grammar, under adjectives, in the section on intensifiers)
kal-zeiti = kalar means few/little (see the correlatives section of the grammar). So, i assume something along the lines of "close", as in a close race.
verem = ver + -em adverb ending: truly

I don't quite get the "u xen" part. The dictionary says it means "when", as in "I don't know when", but that doesn't seem to make sense here? Also, it seems to me you can combine xen and ven, is there ever a situation where they will be confused?

.....................
Froome, de kalzeitem vervais-snaket kaqbersamu novi zu 2020, elezzet zu al-habaran.

Froome, who (kalzeitem?) true indicates sign age (kaq?) together again (group?) 2020, explained (why 2 z's?) (in? group?) the report.

vervais-snaket = this is beyond me, vervais is a confirmation or proof, snak- is sign/mark
kaq-bersamu = (economic) work-together, i think it might make sense to swap the order of these two around, together-work makes more sense for a partnership. And bersam- seems like it could be replaced with the preposition "em"
zu = here i imagine just means "to", not "group".

I didn't go through the whole thing, but it is pretty impressive what you can get through already with just the popup dictionary! I also agree that having some more detailed wordlists would be great, and falling back to the breakdown into roots as it currently is if nothing else is found.

[tommus]

Very good work crush at analyzing those challenging words. You seem to have a good grasp of the Grammar.

I am still getting the last parts of the Grammar into the popup dictionary. I got a bit confused after the recent changes to figure out which parts I had in the popup dictionary, and which parts had been added and which parts deleted. And I'm sure I have not yet figured out some of the deletions. But I added those intensifiers, and also the adverbs. If I understand correctly, all sorts of additional adverbs can be created by adding -em to roots. I guess that could be a variety of roots, including verb and adjective roots, as well as noun roots. Things are getting complex.

I'd say "de ze" means "his".

Yes, I think you are right.

zu = here i imagine just means "to", not "group".

Yes. zu comes up quite a bit and it has a "group" connotation. I think it means something like a group of days leading up "to", as you say, or some other group but represented by "to". This is part of the case I have been making for these "connotation" words having specific translation words, not just an abstract idea.

It is late so I'll not comment any further on your comments for now.

But I have just now added some of the remaining words that resulted from changes to the Grammar. And I have made a minor change to the application. So there now is a new Version 9.0 with some additional adverbs, intensifiers, grammar particles and correlatives.

Atlas PopUp Dictionary Version 9.0

[Rodiniye]

Wow! A lot going on since I have been abroad. I am flying now back home so I will answer tomorrow morning

In the meantime I have updated the blog with a new entry (I did not have good Internet connection). So some phraseology out there:


http://atlas-language.blogspot.fr/2017/ ... -time.html

And apologies for not being able to answer sooner! Tomorrow morning 08UTC at the latest! Thank you!