New auxlang: Atlas

[Rodiniye]

I will update the "shark" and "camel" options, thanks for spotting this one!

As you say, everyone feel free to make suggestions in order to improve it. I am taking suggestions from other places too. This language is in its initial period and I have already made some changes. By now I think people know that I always listen to people's suggestions.

I agree that there will be a period in which changes (vocabulary and grammar possibly too) will be seen, and the language will be open to suggestions. As you say, at some point the very basic vocabulary will have to be what it is and as you mentioned too, any new word added to the dictionary as soon as practicable.

And Tommus (and anyone can do this too, of course), since you seem to have a good knowledge of word formation already and a good knowledge of the language, feel free to send me proposals for words from time to time (privately for this if you like) and I will be updating the dictionary as they come. There are still many words to be included. Just make sure they are not already in there!!

Thanks for your comments about Atlas and for your help!!

[Rodiniye]

New entry in the blog:

http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/2 ... -from.html

I explain where Atlas roots come from, and a few updates.

My idea was to make 2 weekly videos or so with World news headlines, but it is getting difficult due to technical problems. So instead of doing that, I will create a page called "news" with important World news added as they come.

Apart from that, I am planning to translate at least the beginning of one of Roald Dahl's short stories, so keep an eye on this.

You have as well a video in order to see how Atlas sounds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNAX0h ... load_owner

[Rodiniye]

New entry!

http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/2 ... -less.html

This time I have translated "lamb to the slaughter", from Roald Dahl. You can find the translated text in there.

See as well how, even if Atlas is only using 500ish roots, the final result is shorter and uses less space than English and Spanish for instance.... which I found very interesting. Comments on that in the blog too.

Grammar and dictionary updated too, although more updates will follow.

Thank you!!

[tommus]

This time I have translated "lamb to the slaughter", from Roald Dahl.

I am interested in how you produced this translation. So I'd like to ask the following questions:

1. What do you consider your language level to be for writing Atlas? (on the scale A1 --> C2)

2. How do you do the translation? With or without a bilingual dictionary? With lists of prepositions, conjunctions, pronouns, numbers, demonstratives, correlatives, attitude particles, etc.? With or without a computer application (other than an editor)?

3. If someone else with the same Atlas proficiency did the same translation, how similar would it be?

4. If you had a similar text written by someone else, on a different topic, how would you go about reading it? (similar to question 2)

The reason I am asking is because I am looking at some possibilities for a computer application to translate from Atlas to English (more than just a pop-up dictionary). I'll make some further comments about that in a subsequent post.

[tommus]

I am working on a more-advanced pop-up dictionary and translator from Atlas to English. I have some initial observations and recommendations that I think would make it easier and more accurate for a computer to do such translations, and if a computer can do it easier and more accurately, then a person would probably enjoy the same benefits.

It is probably not surprising that my main initial focus is on consistent rules and frequency of exceptions. Let's first look just at prepositions (full list below).

I think the prepositions are more complex than they need to be. My main concern is that most of the prepositions of time are redundant with their equivalent prepositions of space. This means more complexity, more improper usage, more errors, more misunderstanding, etc. I understand the philosophy behind having prepositions of place and prepositions of time (more clarity, more subtle differences), but they come at the expense of simplicity. For example:

Place ............... Time
"car" (around) could serve instead of "lel" (around)
der (close, near) ..... vin (by)
det (behind) ..... hou (after)
li (in) ..... ein (in), also "u" (at, in, on)
vo (before) ..... do (before)
dia (from) ..... ot (from)
zu (to) ..... qus (to, until)

The remaining two prepositions of time don't have an equivalent in place: dum (during), and za (ago).

My understanding of Atlas is that, because it is meant to be easy, without exceptions, have a very small root vocabulary, etc., it has to sacrifice some quantity of precision and nuance. In that respect, I think of it a bit like sign language. To make it easy, and thus likely to catch on, it has to be simple (not confusing, not complex, etc.). So there has to be some sacrifice. When I read in the Grammar the rather complex explanations of some of the "other" prepositions, I think that this sort of complexity and nuance (such as change of position prepositions) is going to make peoples' eyes glaze over.

Company and Instrument compliments are described in the Grammar like this:

Company complements might be introduced by either “em” (with) or “bli” (without).
Di kommez em wi? – Will you come with me?
Instrument complements work in a similar way, introduced by “s” (with) or “z” (without).
Di piacis ez z sukaru? – Do you like it without sugar?

Again, I think having two words for "with" (em, s), and two words for "without" (bli, z) is redundant, confusing, not simple, and unnecessary. For example, how is "without" different between "coming without me" and "liking it without sugar"?

So this is part of my crusade for simplicity, no exceptions, computer-readability, and thus human-readability.

-----------------------------------------------------
Prepositions of place
car around
der close, near
det behind
dia from
dui towards
etz across
hin beyond
ite along
li in
nin among
qu below
ste through
sur on
tra between
vai far, far away
vo before, in front
wel outside
wez past
zu to

prepositions of time
do before
dum during
ein in
hou after
lel close, around
ot from
qus to, until
u at, in, on
vin by, maximum
za ago

other prepositions
o generic quantity
bai approximately
et change of position
w as
als as
ki because
cin in order to
ai until
em with
bli without
s with
z without
vat in
nah in reference to
an on
av off
sei example
ila except
---------------------------------------

[tommus]

Some more comments about Prepositions. If I have counted correctly, there are 52 prepositions in Atlas? That is a lot for a simplified language. For every 10 root words, there is a preposition.

I cannot understand the Grammar explanation of Change of Position prepositions. It is not clear if there are two ("ga", "et"), why they are used, what they mean, etc. This section needs a justification and a clear explanation, plus several examples.

Section 8.7 Other prepositions
"Rol" in 2 places should be "Role". This section 8.7 needs more rationale and explanation, plus examples.

I am getting the impression that Atlas has to use these 52 or so prepositions that convey nuanced meanings to try to compensate for the limited root vocabulary, but in the process is making the grammar and the language very complicated, hard to understand, and hard to learn and use.

I am continuing with my attempt to develop a more functional Atlas -> English pop-up dictionary and translator, but it is becoming very complex. Just a quick glance at what might be the challenges for such an application in the other direction (EN -> AT) leads me to speculate that this will be a much bigger hill to climb. So I am getting concerned that simplicity is turning into complexity.

[tommus]

More work has been required to assemble, quantify and understand more parts of Atlas for the pop-up dictionary and translator. The next categories are grammar particles, attitude particles, conjunctions and connectors. I have taken the liberty (for simplicity) to put "nai" under Grammar particles rather than by itself under Negation as it appears in the Grammar. It also is listed under attitude particles. These words are reasonably straightforward:

*** Grammar Particles
de of, that (relationship)
no of (ownership)
ke that (connection)
xen who, where, when (don't know)
ven who, when, how (question)
nai not (negation)

*** Attitude Particles
auq hurt
bei indifference
dei discovery
diq fair
eiq fear
gei like, preference
hai approval
ha funny
hei amusement
hiq sure
kei angry
lei happiness
mei incredulity
meq moaning
nai negation
nei sympathy
cei doubt
niq unfair
ok agreement
ouq surprise
pai resignation
qei hope
rai worry, stress
sui stress
tai interest
tei pitty
vaq repugnance
vei desire
veq can’t believe
woi perplexity
wiq looking forward
xei sorrow
xeq caution
zaq worry

*** Conjunctions
ta and
va or
ma but
qa so that
sa so
wa rather than
na not only
la if
doula even if
wela as if

*** Connectors
selv although
weqoz however
wuzti hence
xiev to start with
wanev to finish with
andev on the other hand
ekev in the first place
doiev in the second place
detev after that

---

[tommus]

Next comes some challenging material, both to understand the meaning, to understand the need, and to contemplate how difficult these words will be to learn. They include articles, demonstrative determiners and correlatives. All (and I repeat all) take the noun morphemes (animal, vegetable, concrete, abstract), and those that can act as adverbs or determiners also take the "-ar" ending. It is an understatement to say that this adds complexity. From the Atlas Grammar, it is not clear that the Correlatives can stand alone (without the morphemes) but I have done that and show them also standing alone.

I have been expressing growing concern about the complexity of Atlas, but these words below make me very worried. It places the learner and user of Atlas in the position of having to think about some very complex grammatical construction when writing and speaking, both about the grammar of these words, the nuances in meaning, but far worse, the correlation with the "gender' of the associated nouns (animal, vegetable, concrete and abstract), all to come up with the suffixes to these little words. And these little words are everywhere. All over the place. The learner and the user is going to have a huge amount of mental strain and mental fatigue. They will wish they were back studying German with only der, die, das, des, dem and den to worry about. So I think the approach of Atlas to use all these matching noun morphemes is destroying much of the purported simplicity of this constructed language.

*** Articles, Demonstratives, Determiners
al the (definite article)
te this (close to speaker), now (time)
le this, that (close to listener), recent (time)
ce that (far from all), far away (time)
tea this (animal pronoun)
teo this (vegetable pronoun)
teu this (concrete pronoun)
tee this (abstract pronoun)
lea this, that (animal close to listener), recent (animal time)
leo this, that (vegetable close to listener), recent (vegetable time)
leu this, that (concrete close to listener), recent (concrete time)
lee this, that (abstract close to listener), recent (abstract time)
cea that (animal far from all), far away (animal time)
ceo that (vegetable far from all), far away (vegetable time)
ceu that (concrete far from all), far away (concrete time)
cee that (abstract far from all), far away (abstract time)

*** Correlatives
duk all, every
duka all, every (animal)
duko all, every (vegetable)
duku all, every (concrete)
duke all, every (abstract)
dukar all, every (adverb)
tod whole
toda whole (animal)
todo whole (vegetable)
todu whole (concrete)
tode whole (abstract)
todar whole (adverb)
hakun none
hakuna none (animal)
hakuno none(vegetable)
hakunu none (concrete)
hakune none (abstract)
hakunar none (adverb)
hinek some
hineka some (animal)
hineko some (vegetable)
hineku some (concrete)
hineke some (abstract)
hinekar some (adverb)
ken any
kena any (animal)
keno any (vegetable)
kenu any (concrete)
kene any (abstract)
kenar any (adverb)
and other
anda other (animal)
ando other (vegetable)
andu other (concrete)
ande other (abstract)
andar other (adverb)
on each (animal)
ona each (animal) (animal)
ono each (animal) (vegetable)
onu each (animal) (concrete)
one each (animal) (abstract)
onar each (animal) (adverb)
zug enough, sufficient
zuga enough, sufficient (animal)
zugo enough, sufficient (vegetable)
zugu enough, sufficient (concrete)
zuge enough, sufficient (abstract)
zugar enough, sufficient (adverb)
drugoi another
drugoia another (animal)
drugoio another (vegetable)
drugoiu another (concrete)
drugoie another (abstract)
drugoiar another (adverb)
mult a lot of
multa a lot of (animal)
multo a lot of (vegetable)
multu a lot of (concrete)
multe a lot of (abstract)
multar a lot of (adverb)
kal few, little
kala few, little (animal)
kalo few, little (vegetable)
kalu few, little (concrete)
kale few, little (abstract)
kalar few, little (adverb)
trop too much, too many
tropa too much, too many (animal)
tropo too much, too many (vegetable)
tropu too much, too many (concrete)
trope too much, too many (abstract)
tropar too much, too many (adverb)
helek a part of
heleka a part of (animal)
heleko a part of (vegetable)
heleku a part of (concrete)
heleke a part of (abstract)
helekar a part of (adverb)
rai rather
raia rather (animal)
raio rather (vegetable)
raiu rather (concrete)
raie rather (abstract)
raiar rather (adverb)

---

[tommus]

Complexity of Atlas

I guess I am at the position in my look at Atlas, and my attempts at developing a better pop-up dictionary and translator, to ask Rodiniye to address my general concerns about complexity, and specifically:

1. Is Atlas simple?

2. Due to the complexity of the grammar, the morpheme requirements, the sentence order, the many nuances, etc., is Atlas a language that only passionate linguists can enjoy?

[crush]

Just read through the whole page, i think it's an interesting project and would be interested in spending some time learning it at least superficially as it gets more mature, especially as tommus provides more and more suggestions. I'd also suggest making a Soundcloud account or something and providing more sound samples of the language and providing a section for that on the main blog.

I read through a couple posts on the blog as well and i don't think all of the animal names for example are completely obvious (as tommus pointed out), having a more complete dictionary with the set definitions of compound words would be great. "Striped-animal" for example might be zebra, tiger, raccoon, skunk, or some local animal and different languages and cultures will have different ideas as to what comes to mind when you say "striped animal", so having a list of these already established words would be helpful.