New auxlang: Atlas

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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby crush » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:45 am

Rodiniye wrote:
... it could perhaps be simplified to: a = living (plant/animal), u = non-living, e = nominalization of a verb.
...
eima = someone suffering from pain
eimu = a pain
eime = the act of feeling pain
eimes = suffer/feel pain


Good suggestion, but I do not think people would find that easier. My brother would not know what "nominalization of a verb" is, I think he finds it easier to distinguish between things he can touch or not :lol: How is in your example "eimu" and "eime" too different? is "pain" not the process of feeling pain already? Or very similar? Atlas has "eime" for both...

Well, you already use it for nominalization, the difference is that you merge the -u and -e forms so that you don't have to worry about that concrete vs abstract difference. Right now, the -e form is shared with nominalization (ie. for actions, so using a verb as a noun) as well as for abstract nouns like love and ghost. To me it seems clearer to treat love, ghost, and medicine as one type and reserving -e for verbs, but i'm fine with either way, i was just offering a suggestion which i thought might clear things up without really changing the grammar that much. I've already uploaded the roots and recorded the first 300 anyway, so... :P

arza = doctor
arze = medicine
arzu = drug

With Esperanto, you have a similar suffix system, so you could have:
kuraci = arzes = to treat
kuracado = arze = (the process of) treating, treatment
kuracisto = arza = someone who treats, doctor
kuracilo = arzu = a tool for treating, medicine (though there's also the form "medikamento")

The problem i have with Esperanto is i often have trouble telling whether the root was originally a noun/adjective or a verb, for example kurac- is inherently a verb, dom- inherently a noun. If i want to treat someone, i can "kuraci" them. If i want to make something into a house, though, i have to "domigi" it, not "domi". And there are other subtleties which trip me up from time to time, whether to use -i or -igi, -o or -aĵo or even -ado, and so on.
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby Rodiniye » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:19 pm

With Esperanto, you have a similar suffix system,


Just did a little research, and suffixes do exist. However, other words do exist, and as far as I can see it, they are preferred. "Medicine" is "medicino", "doctor" is "doktoro"; and "drug" is "drogo" (all very European too). So yes, there might be a system of suffixes, but it is not the same as Atlas. You still need to know all those roots...

... and as you said, you need to know the grammar category of the original "root". In Atlas, you dont.

the difference is that you merge the -u and -e forms so that you don't have to worry about that concrete vs abstract difference


And I appreciate all suggestions as you know. But I think the current system works and it is easy, and more importantly, we need to stop changing things! :lol:

Apart from numbers, are the only times hyphens are used are for the following prefixes?

al-, du-, ha-, ce-, te-

If ce- and te- have a hyphen, then it would seem that cen- and ten- would also have a hyphen.

If these 7 appear to be the only prefixes, and the only ones with a hyphen, do they really need a hyphen at all? They don't need one in English. It would simplify things if they simply appeared in front of the word they are associated with.


As far as I am concerned yes, hyphens only there and numbers.

"cen" and "ten" do not appear before nouns, because the "n" is plural. So if you want to say "these houses", you say "te-batun". The "n" is already in the noun (as if you said "this houses").

About taking the hyphen out, I already said that this is essential to me, because the meanign coming from those particles modifies the meaning of the word itself. To me, the "defineteness" of word has to be described within the word and not outside it. That is why all these particles have the hyphen...

... Plus... I think it is not complicated at all, and it makes easier to recognize them. Much easier actually.

And there are a number of unanswered questions in the last few posts here in LLorg


I agree about things that still need some changes, but they are little things and mostly little mistakes.

I try to answer all the questions but I might have forgotten something, If I do, please insist. It is not that I do not want to answer, it's that I quote sentences and I might forget something.

I can help with this. But I think we need a plan so that we aren't duplicating each other. Maybe I can start that and see how to proceed.


Seems good to me!

What is your plan for Spanish? Are you going to make a Spanish version of the grammar and the derived words?


At some point the grammar yes... compound words probably not. It will be just roots and grammar probably.

To answer your question about the differences between "at" and "in" in English. Sometimes, there is little of no difference, but often there are major differences:


See? Been speaking English for ages and I did not know the difference in meaning in the sentence related to movies!

I think Atlas usage of "ei" for places is good. If you want to specify whether you are in or out, just use "va" or "no".

Preposition "ai" in Atlas is used for situations, so in Atlas being "ai al-vimu" would be acting, and "ei al-vimu" would be in there, in the place, watching it. However, I am not expecting speakers to use "ai" initially very much, but it is there for these kind of situations.
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby Rosen » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:11 pm

Rodiniye wrote:arza = doctor
arze = medicine
arzu = drug


Just a question: Why would "arza" mean "doctor", rather than "pharmacist"? What is the word for "pharmacist"?
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby tommus » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:15 pm

2017-09-07 AtlasPopUpDictionaryV3.0:

I believe this new version conforms to virtually all of the latest changes to Atlas. It introduces a new parsing scheme and 4 parsing windows.

There are 4 green windows. Let's call them, from the left, One, Two, Three, Four.

For a small, one component Atlas word, the translation is shown in the top yellow window, and the details of the word in window Four.

For a two or three-component Atlas Word that is in the dictionary, including derived words, same thing. The details are in window Four.

For a two-component word that is not in the dictionary, it is parsed by the computer and the two component details are put in windows Three and Four.

For a three-component word that is not in the dictionary, it is parsed by the computer and the three component details are put in windows Two, Three and Four.

If there is a prefix such as "al- (the), if goes in window One.

In all cases, the translations also go at the top in the yellow window.

The default text in the application contains a variety of 1, 2 and 3 component words, including some in the dictionary and some that are not. Scroll down for more. Double clicking on these Atlas words will show the functions of the parser and the translator.

The two brown/orange windows at the bottom are for looking up Atlas words by inputting English words. The next version of the popup dictionary will address some improvements to this function.

2017-09-07 AtlasPopUpDictionaryV3.0
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby Rodiniye » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:08 pm

Rosen wrote:
Rodiniye wrote:arza = doctor
arze = medicine
arzu = drug


Just a question: Why would "arza" mean "doctor", rather than "pharmacist"? What is the word for "pharmacist"?


It is not in the dictionary yet, would I think arzvaza would be good, which is made of "arz" (medicine, doctor, drug) + "vaz" (make).

Same as "nurse" would be "gerdaxa" or "arzdaxa" (heal+care) or (medicine/doctor+care).

Interesting question though! Obviously the relationship between roots and their meaning is not scientifical (it can never be), so these doubts or questions are absolutely normal. Just remember Atlas roots are not there in order to be 100% intuitive (I say again, it is impossible, you would need to use another system, probably not a linguistic one), but to help out in word creation in case of necessity, be highly intuitive when you read and easy to memorize.
Last edited by Rodiniye on Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby Rodiniye » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:09 pm

2017-09-07 AtlasPopUpDictionaryV3.0:


Nice job, I will include that tomorrow on the website :)
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby tommus » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:48 am

Next step - big job: to build what I am calling "derived roots". (as opposed to "derived words" which would have 2 or 3 components made from roots.)

I think "derived roots" are roots that have noun, verb, adjective or adverb endings. Examples: root = aid (help) gives aida (help animal), aide (help), aides (is helping), aidet (was helping), aidi (helpful), aidez (will be helping), etc.

These are the translations you would get with a popup dictionary, a paper dictionary, or a computer translation of a sentence, etc. Otherwise, instead of getting aidez (will be helping), you would just get aidez (aid) = verb non-permanent future.

There is no easy way to generate these specific translations other than doing it word-for-word, manually. So I have generated a sort of template of all the possible nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs from all the 525 roots (that are about 8420 potentially "derived roots"). The template is to guide the creation of the specific translation. Example:

Template for a verb:
aidet: verb non-permanent past
aidet >>> help

And the manual labourer turns that into:
aidet: verb non-permanent past
aidet >>> was helping

Then the computer reads that back into a permanent dictionary of "derived roots".

So far, I have completed 48 or the 8417, as a test of how it works and how long it takes. I think it works well, and takes just a few seconds to think about the translation and enter it. For some words, it may be nonsensical, so then enter it like this so the computer knows, and maybe someone else will determine that it could make sense.

aidet: verb non-permanent past
aidet >>> help xxx

Note that I am just using "is" and "was" (singular) whereas the verbs in the same form would be used with plural nouns and pronouns.

I may find that this is too labourious and do some sort of compromise solution with a computer.

So here are those 48. I'd like some feedback, especially on whether I am getting the verb tenses right.

Code: Select all

adda: noun generic animal 
adda >>> normal, ordinary animal

addan: noun plural animal 
addan >>> normal, ordinary animals

adde: noun generic abstract 
adde >>> normal, ordinary abstract thing

adden: noun plural abstract 
adden >>> normal, ordinary abstract things

addes: verb  non-permanent present
addes >>> is being normal, ordinary

addet: verb  non-permanent past
addet >>> was being normal, ordinary

addez: verb  non-permanent future
addez >>> will be being normal, ordinary

addi: adjective   
addi >>> normal, ordinary

addik: adverb   
addik >>> normally, ordinarily

addis: verb  permanent present
addis >>> is normal, is ordinary

addit: verb  permanent past
addit >>> was normal, was ordinary

addiz: verb  permanent future
addiz >>> will be normal, will be ordinary

addo: noun generic plant 
addo >>> normal, ordinary plant

addon: noun plural plant 
addon >>> normal, ordinary plants

addu: noun generic concrete 
addu >>> normal, ordinary concrete thing

addun: noun plural concrete 
addun >>> normal, ordinary concrete things

aica: noun generic animal 
aica >>> transparent, neat animal

aican: noun plural animal 
aican >>> transparent, neat animals

aice: noun generic abstract 
aice >>> transparent, neat abstract thing

aicen: noun plural abstract 
aicen >>> transparent, neat abstract things

aices: verb  non-permanent present
aices >>> is being transparent, neat

aicet: verb  non-permanent past
aicet >>> was being transparent, neat

aicez: verb  non-permanent future
aicez >>> will be being transparent, neat

aici: adjective   
aici >>> transparent, neat

aicik: adverb   
aicik >>> transparently, neatly

aicis: verb  permanent present
aicis >>> is transparent, is neat

aicit: verb  permanent past
aicit >>> was transparent, was neat

aiciz: verb  permanent future
aiciz >>> will be being transparent, neat

aico: noun generic plant 
aico >>> transparent, neat plant

aicon: noun plural plant 
aicon >>> transparent, neat plants

aicu: noun generic concrete 
aicu >>> transparent, neat concrete thing

aicun: noun plural concrete 
aicun >>> transparent, neat concrete things

aida: noun generic animal 
aida >>> help animal

aidan: noun plural animal 
aidan >>> help animals

aide: noun generic abstract 
aide >>> help

aiden: noun plural abstract 
aiden >>> help

aides: verb  non-permanent present
aides >>> is helping

aidet: verb  non-permanent past
aidet >>> was helping

aidez: verb  non-permanent future
aidez >>> will be helping

aidi: adjective   
aidi >>> helpful

aidik: adverb   
aidik >>> helpingly

aidis: verb  permanent present
aidis >>> is helpful

aidit: verb  permanent past
aidit >>> helped

aidiz: verb  permanent future
aidiz >>> will help

aido: noun generic plant 
aido >>> helpful plant

aidon: noun plural plant 
aidon >>> helpful plants

aidu: noun generic concrete 
aidu >>> helpful concrete thing

aidun: noun plural concrete 
aidun >>> helpful concrete things
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby crush » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:09 am

I think we can first give the a, e, u, and es forms. When we have the es form, we can use a script to make the "was -ing" "will -" etc. forms. There will be forms that aren't quite right, but that should be much easier to edit.
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby tommus » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:50 pm

crush wrote:I think we can first give the a, e, u, and es forms. When we have the es form, we can use a script to make the "was -ing" "will -" etc. forms. There will be forms that aren't quite right, but that should be much easier to edit.

OK. Good suggestion. I added all that and more to the program that generates the forms for each derived root and I think it will make the manual corrections easier. There are a lot of translations that are nonsensical but they are a good guide for the corrections. Some need minor adjusting such as "work" becomes "worked", "working", etc. while "time" becomes "timeed", "timeing", etc. But those corrections should be obvious and quick.

I will probably leave most of the corrected derived roots in the internal computer dictionary. Even if they are a bit nonsensical, they would give a reader a sense of what the author meant if he/she created such a derived root. And the vast majority of derived roots in the internal dictionary will never be seen unless some author actually creates the word.

Here are examples for the next few derived roots:

Code: Select all

aika: noun generic animal 
aika >>> function animal, work animal

aikan: noun plural animal 
aikan >>> function animals, work animals

aike: noun generic abstract 
aike >>> function abstract thing, work abstract thing

aiken: noun plural abstract 
aiken >>> function abstract things, work abstract things

aikes: verb  non-permanent present
aikes >>> is functioning, is working

aiket: verb  non-permanent past
aiket >>> was functioning, was working

aikez: verb  non-permanent future
aikez >>> will be functioning, will be working

aiki: adjective   
aiki >>> function, work

aikik: adverb   
aikik >>> functionly, workly

aikis: verb  permanent present
aikis >>> functions, works

aikit: verb  permanent past
aikit >>> functioned, worked

aikiz: verb  permanent future
aikiz >>> will function, will work

aiko: noun generic plant 
aiko >>> function plant, work plant

aikon: noun plural plant 
aikon >>> function plants, work plants

aiku: noun generic concrete 
aiku >>> function concrete thing, work concrete thing

aikun: noun plural concrete 
aikun >>> function concrete things, work concrete things

aima: noun generic animal 
aima >>> father animal, mother animal

aiman: noun plural animal 
aiman >>> father animals, mother animals

aime: noun generic abstract 
aime >>> father abstract thing, mother abstract thing

aimen: noun plural abstract 
aimen >>> father abstract things, mother abstract things

aimes: verb  non-permanent present
aimes >>> is fathering, is mothering

aimet: verb  non-permanent past
aimet >>> was fathering, was mothering

aimez: verb  non-permanent future
aimez >>> will be fathering, will be mothering

aimi: adjective   
aimi >>> father, mother

aimik: adverb   
aimik >>> fatherly, motherly

aimis: verb  permanent present
aimis >>> fathers, mothers

aimit: verb  permanent past
aimit >>> fathered, mothered

aimiz: verb  permanent future
aimiz >>> will father, will mother

aimo: noun generic plant 
aimo >>> father plant, mother plant

aimon: noun plural plant 
aimon >>> father plants, mother plants

aimu: noun generic concrete 
aimu >>> father concrete thing, mother concrete thing

aimun: noun plural concrete 
aimun >>> father concrete things, mother concrete things

aina: noun generic animal 
aina >>> species animal

ainan: noun plural animal 
ainan >>> species animals

aine: noun generic abstract 
aine >>> species abstract thing

ainen: noun plural abstract 
ainen >>> species abstract things

aines: verb  non-permanent present
aines >>> is speciesing

ainet: verb  non-permanent past
ainet >>> was speciesing

ainez: verb  non-permanent future
ainez >>> will be speciesing

aini: adjective   
aini >>> species

ainik: adverb   
ainik >>> speciesly

ainis: verb  permanent present
ainis >>> speciess

ainit: verb  permanent past
ainit >>> speciesed

ainiz: verb  permanent future
ainiz >>> will species

aino: noun generic plant 
aino >>> species plant

ainon: noun plural plant 
ainon >>> species plants

ainu: noun generic concrete 
ainu >>> species concrete thing

ainun: noun plural concrete 
ainun >>> species concrete things

aira: noun generic animal 
aira >>> air animal

airan: noun plural animal 
airan >>> air animals

aire: noun generic abstract 
aire >>> air abstract thing

airen: noun plural abstract 
airen >>> air abstract things

aires: verb  non-permanent present
aires >>> is airing

airet: verb  non-permanent past
airet >>> was airing

airez: verb  non-permanent future
airez >>> will be airing

airi: adjective   
airi >>> air

airik: adverb   
airik >>> airly

airis: verb  permanent present
airis >>> airs

airit: verb  permanent past
airit >>> aired

airiz: verb  permanent future
airiz >>> will air

airo: noun generic plant 
airo >>> air plant

airon: noun plural plant 
airon >>> air plants

airu: noun generic concrete 
airu >>> air concrete thing

airun: noun plural concrete 
airun >>> air concrete things
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Re: New auxlang: Atlas

Postby crush » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:39 pm

Was just going over the word "begu" now (aubergine/eggplant), why is that a -u and not an -o?
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