LesRonces wrote:Serpent wrote:aaleks wrote:
In your case I think it's the Russian education system's obsession with grammar mistakes. This still haunts me especially in German, though I can communicate just fine.
I also tend to think that you can't really be C1/C2 passively and only A2 actively. Either you're underestimating your active skills (B1 isn't that hard, honestly), or you're not actually C1. (Higher levels of comprehension require being able to notice the author's stylistical choices)
I agree to be A2 (active skills) and B2 (passive skills)
. I’ve already written why I assume that my passive skills could be better than B2, but if I’m mistaken it’s OK, since I don’t need so high level as C1. I mean I have no need in English for work or life. More important to me is that I can understand books and movies/series.
The big gap, I think I have, between passive and active skills is a result of my unsystematic way of learning: too little speaking and no writing until last winter and at the same time a lot of reading and listening. I probably can to notice the author's stylistical choices, but I not always can repeat them. My first attempts to write in English revealed my grammar problems. And it seems that my attempts to solve those problems have backfired in some way. I had a very similar problem back in school, only then it was about orthography. I wasn’t able to correctly apply any rules which were more complicate than жи/ши, ча/ща, тся/ться, не с глаголами etc. The more I tried the more mistakes I did. In the end I just gave up and started to rely more on common sense, reading, writing practice. But with a foreign language it dosen’t work that well as with native one. I have to follow not only my feeling but grammar rules as well, and sometimes, it seems, there happens a sort of collusion in my head (and my posts).
Well, writing in a native-like way is C2 or C1 In writing you seem like a typical B2 to me.
As for "natural learning", the hardest part is noticing the things you would've said differently and remembering them.
Agree, for me, for someone who writes as a non-native at C2+++ level, check out yourself or blaurebell. I can write at the same level as her, but only with heavy proof reading and editing. I see lots of things i could improve on for my general forum chat but i'm not too interested in improving it. For an essay at uni though, i would be methodical so it would read like C2+++ type work.
For C1 i would say check out Cavesa. She writes very, very well. Excellently in fact, but certain things give her away as non-native whereas blaurebell would never be sussed as non-native from her writing if she never admitted it.
At B2+++ level i think Voytek would fit the bill. Clearly non-native, but very good nonetheless.
There are some very learned language enthusiasts on here who have clearly put a lot of effort into their languages with just rewards. It's great that we get them as inspiration and to fall back on as a crutch when we need advice or information.
I have a feeling Tarvos is also very advanced in multiple languages despite the fact that i'm not advanced enough in my TL to make any judgements.
When we're humble, we take from the best and learn from them. We either stand on the shoulders of giants or we throw stones at them.
Firstly, I think Serpent gives another great example of the cultural differences related to confidence in one's skills and level assessment. The usual education, the attitude in families and schools, the social norms related to bragging. And the comparation with others, which is highly influenced by the usual level in the region, for example. Of course you'll be more likely to overestimate yourself, if you live in a monolingual area, where people know only a few words of a foreign language and take even that as an achievement. Lack of clash with reality distorts the ability to assess oneself too.
I think many of the perceived liars are simply from a different culture. A Czech will usually stay on the safe side, and even underestimate themselves, partially because of the usual low self-confidence, partially because it is normal in our society. An American is more likely to have been educated to confidence, to selling their qualities, and is more likely to have never travelled. And we could put together other examples, with the possible reasons of "lying". If Russians are simply used to perfect grammar being the Holy Grail, than of course their self-assessment may be different from people from education systems prefering fluid speaking at the expense of grammar precision.
I am not sure whether or not I agree that the huge discrepancies in levels of the individual skills are just wrong self-assessment. For example, my passive Italian is very good (not excellent, but very good), let's say B2/C1. My speaking is weak. I have the neanderthal tourist skills. I could probably talk with you about medicine, or books at B1 level. But I definitely wouldn't cover many of the typical A1/A2 subjects well enough. How could I be B1, if I cannot tell you much about my last holidays or about my hobbies?
In English, there is more going on than just the unsystematic learning. Yes, vast majority of learners is spending much more time watching movies than speaking the language. But that is not the only difference. In real life, high level speaking can be rather a problem than an advantage. Speaking is my weakest skill in English. I can talk about anything, and quite precisely and with relatively few mistakes, but you will immediately notice my accent, some pronunciation mistakes, and perhaps other stuff too. And yet, I had to dumb my English down on various occassions. I rarely meet natives, I usually speak to other ESL speakers. And I am usually better than them, because the commonly achieved level is by far not as great as language school advertisements would have you believe. I had to explain or change vocabulary, use just basic grammar, speak really slowly. And now imagine people using English every day at work, but mostly among non natives. They understand each other perfectly. They understand other non natives perfectly. But a new native collegue is a communication problem. But they still might read and write really well.
About the level assessment you've described:
It should be finally accepted that C2 doesn't mean perfection. It is not native level either. In any of the skills! Yes, you should be able to function more or less like a native, you are not expected to be exactly like one and very few people get to that "C3" level. While some learners like to take comfort in the idea that many natives write like pigs and don't care, or that natives with low education would have trouble with the rather academic writing assignments of the high level exams, it doesn't mean anything. A native of equal education and background to mine will always write much better. A native of your TL of equal education and background to yours will very probably write better than you. But that doesn't change the fact my writing was officially graded C2 in two foreign languages, despite not being nativelike.
Don't get me wrong, I don't feel offended by the assessment. I don't check my writing before posting, even though I should, sometimes I surprise even myself with the mistakes, I don't look up stuff on Google while writing, I write as fast as I speak. Yeah, I should probably pay more attention
. And it has been some time since my English exam, I could have worsened, and I could guess a few areas where. But on the other hand, my French writing is noticeably worse and still fulfilled the C2 criteria in the official exam, as there is some wiggleroom there. I suppose my writing was at the lower end of the expectations, but still sufficed. You definitely wouldn't take me for a native, if I wrote this post in French
I think that we should definitely gather a bit more information about the learner before taking them for a liar, and distinguish the real criteria from our prejudice. No skill is bound to be the best for every learner. None of the skills is officially more important for the overall level. C2 does not mean native like. A1 requires some learning, it is not the starting point people should write in their profiles after their first hour of learning. Self-assessment is bound to be imprecise, that doesn't make someone a liar. Online tests are too easy and test only some skills and in very limited fashion, yet they throw the CEFR levels merrily around as if they were reliable.