Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

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tastyonions
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby tastyonions » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:55 am

It looks like that map is mixing accents / dialectical variations of French with other languages (e.g. Auvergnat and Provençal, both dialects of Occitan, and Breton, not even a Romance language).
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:39 pm

Tillumadoguenirurm wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:
sillygoose1 wrote:English definitely has the most variation in accents if you account for towns and cities but Spanish probably has the most variation in accents in terms of solely countries and of course vocabulary. It's sort of bizarre as to how English doesn't have much more vocab differences as one may think while Argentina and Chile who are neighbors can vary drastically for example.

French is pretty uniform outside of Quebecois and some Belgian/Southern French cities. The only Africans I've heard who speak with a distinct accent are those whose first language isn't French or didn't go to a French language school.


My bookshelf says differently. There are a dozen or more recognised dialects - Parigo vs Ch'ti. Normand. Aostan, Swiss, Belgian, Etc...

Image


Some of those aren't really dialects of French. Occitan is it's own language and if I remember correctly so is Picard (Ch'ti) and Gallo.


And to add, I believe much of the French dialects (as with many other languages) are giving way almost rapidly to standard French. Accents do remain indeed, and certain local expressions, but from what I can fathom, dialects are really disappearing quickly. Occitan itself (as mentioned by Tillumadoguenirurm), a once pretty decent sized language group or continuum (and separate to French), is worryingly potentially at the edge of a precipice. Alarming words I know, but it's the picture I've attained from my readings on the topic, which I hope are incorrect, or that the future changes for this beautiful language group.

Spanish on the other hand, even if each individual country were to have there own standard form, seems more diverse in terms of accent and linguistic variation. I could be completely wrong, it just 'seems' to be the case from my perspective. English probably has about as much variation as Spanish, but it's a complex topic, of which I'm making assumptions based on rudimentary knowledge at best when compared to those who have studied such topics in detail for years via linguistic studies perhaps.

In terms of French dialects disappearing, and other languages for that matter experiencing the same changes (Italian? Dutch?). This is what standardisation and language policies (or lack of protective policies) can do to the cultural/linguistic countryside - turn it/them against itself/themselves, which has happened much throughout history and still does. The very notion of standardised languages for each nation-state, ironically rendered the usefullness of learning langauges, well more useful, as they could be used throughout certain countries or groups of countries, or sections of countries, whereas in the past there was nothing but language continuums- a landscape of shades of various sometimes unimaginable linguistic colours, a world in which globalisation was simply too awkward a concept not practical in a more natural world not subject to governmental motives.
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:32 pm

The CNRS just put together an Interactive Atlas of regional languages so you can go and hear the different French variations / dialects / languages:

https://atlas.limsi.fr
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby Dannylearns » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:27 pm

that map is really great and quite surprising. when i was living in france and have been to many regions, i've never actually experienced such a big difference in their type of french. it all seemed very easy to understand.
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:19 pm

About african French varieties: I read and interesting article (a long time ago, I'd need to invest some time into looking it up again, published around 2010, if I remember correctly) about those. There are differences and definitely not just Europe vs. Africa. Just look at the number of speakers, the natives, the bilingual natives, the second langauge speakers, the non-natives who get educated in French. And take into account that in some regions the easy access to foreign or global media and plentiful contact with foreigners is not that spread, while contact with and use of other languages is everyday reality. Therefore there logically must be some differences and various kinds of differences. And there are.

I haven't noticed much of a difference between natives from african countries during my stay in Bordeaux, but those were people who had got French education either as immigrants or originally in their countries. Of course I would speak like a native from France too, had my parents paid 10000 euros per semester for education at the Lycée Français in Prague or had they sent me to the country, that wouldn't make me a representative sample. I suppose most people meeting African French natives have met the same social spheres, the same social bubbles. But that doesn't mean these people represent the "standard african French natives". And it doesn't mean that the "standard" in their country is necessarily worse French.

From the article that I've mentioned, it was pretty clear the differences exist. But the problem is their definition, exploration, or codification into other standards. The article blamed surviving racism and colonialist attitudes and lack of interest among the linguists. Basically, if a canadian speaks differently, it is the Quebec dialect. If an african speaks differently, it is a mix of standard French with mistakes caused by bad education. The idea is sad. But somehow, I don't have much of a trouble believing it, even though I wouldn't dare to guess to what extent is it to blame.
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby sgiandubh » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:34 pm

a little enjoyable song regarding variations in español ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LjDe4s ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby Dannylearns » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:18 pm

that's a funny song, thanks for sharing :p
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby tarvos » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:04 pm

French suppression of local variation is immense and much stronger than in other countries. Not many people speak a true dialect, there may be some local variations and when you leave French the French spoken in different countries can certainly be, umm, special (Looking at Quebec). But in terms of standardization, French is way more uniform than Spanish or English is and that has always been a part of French government policy. I wish it weren't so, but such is the way of the French language.
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Re: Spanish, English, and French which has more variation?

Postby Theodisce » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:22 pm

Cavesa wrote:Basically, if a canadian speaks differently, it is the Quebec dialect. If an african speaks differently, it is a mix of standard French with mistakes caused by bad education. The idea is sad. But somehow, I don't have much of a trouble believing it, even though I wouldn't dare to guess to what extent is it to blame.


Jürgen Erfurt in his book "Frankophonie. Sprache - Diskurs - Politik" points to the fact that there is the attitude of language shaming in Quebec. His idea is that the elite which has embraced the Parisian standard accuses other groups of speaking bad French. There has been however the affirmative action which enabled the Quebec dialect to gain more ground in the "high" culture. Perhaps the same could be done (and is already being done) in French speaking Africa. I see no other probable outcome than the ultimate emergence of various vernaculars (perhaps accompanied by diglossia) , shall this policy be continued.
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