Study on Language Improvement with Native Materials

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The material descriptions may or may not be necessary - again that's an RD decision - but if I remove that section then length per material also goes or needs to be entered for each activity event.

I'm not asking to remove material descriptions or page numbers or movie lengths. My format enters "Book Title"s just like yours, and enters them once just like yours, and can re-use them multiple times just like yours. But my format does not require the creation of fields like "Reading - Dune". See pic below. Top half of pic in dark grey frame is "Activity" tab. The 2 groups of cells below are material name and length, etc. Further details in my last post.

STUDY-201707-01.jpg

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You don't have to use my format. I wrote it for myself to use. But the thought of having to convert my format every month before submission... I mean I believe my format will be a lot quicker and easier for other participants to use

[zenmonkey]

Can you post your spreadsheet? I'm not locked into a specific format. I'd like to play with it.

[smallwhite]

Can you post your spreadsheet? I'm not locked into a specific format. I'd like to play with it.

My spreadsheet doesn't work yet, it's still a fake draft, waiting for data from you such as option values and the (1,2,3). Do you understand what I mean by skipping "Eng - reading - Dune" etc now?

[zenmonkey]

Can you post your spreadsheet? I'm not locked into a specific format. I'd like to play with it.

My spreadsheet doesn't work yet, it's still a fake draft, waiting for data from you such as option values and the (1,2,3). Do you understand what I mean by skipping "Eng - reading - Dune" etc now?

I do, but then you need a third section for not books or film but for audio sources and where do you place books with audio? Perhaps a fourth section for that.

How do you separate different languages in your spreadsheet without identifying the language?

How do you identify books acceptable for the study vs bilingual readers?
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But, I understand you want to simplify. So in order to reduce entry on the spreadsheet I'm proposing, I've made the long description optional.

Consider the comparison: that a single entry where you select language and write "Book - Dune". Maybe it takes you 2 seconds to write "book", rather than go and find the Book section and Write "Dune". (And this also makes the effort of writing the conditional validations easier for me, by the way.)

You never need to write "English - Reading - Dune" - select language, select type of material, write "Reading Dune". Number of pages. Done. The material entry takes 15 seconds tops to create. Perhaps maybe it takes 5 seconds more instead of 2 for that extra data. (Maybe.) Let's say you are on the high-end and use 25 unique, new materials per week (aside from the amount of time wasted looking for this material...) the additional data entry per week is ... less than 2 minutes.

Now the only typing you really have to do is the dark yellow column (aside from duration, date...). Almost everything else is pull downs.

Screen Shot 2017-07-20 at 19.41.30.png

If you want to propose a different working spreadsheet - please do go ahead and build it.
Or feel free to take mine and modify it as you like (I have a backup).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

PS: I've solved the date issue by making the validation obligatory. Note that Google sheets forces a MM/DD format, as far as I can tell.

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If you want to propose a different working spreadsheet - please do go ahead and build it.

What you see in the screenshot is what I've been building. I'm just waiting for finalised information from you to create the functionalities. My screenshot is as "unresponsive" as your Google spreadsheet anyway , I can't enter values on your spreadsheet either, and the dropdown fields don't drop down either.

But seriously. I thought my descriptions of "my" format would be easy for you to understand because "my" format is everywhere - every ERP, accounting software or spreadsheet I've seen work like that. I've never had to merge fields myself before using them. I've always entered "Cash Received" in one box then "$100" in another box, instead of having to create "$100 Cash Received" then "$305 Cash Received" then "$24.85 Cash Received", etc, every time a different amount is received.

That said, now that required fields are conveniently presented as (1,2,3) and final results are shown in tab Flat, I think I can more easily convert my own spreadsheet into your format. So you can simply continue with your format and I'm happy to convert monthly. Thanks for answering all my questions!

To answer yours nonetheless:

Consider the comparison: that a single entry where you select language and write "Book - Dune". Maybe it takes you 2 seconds to write "book", rather than go and find the Book section and Write "Dune". (And this also makes the effort of writing the conditional validations easier for me, by the way.)

You never need to write "English - Reading - Dune" - select language, select type of material, write "Reading Dune". Number of pages. Done. The material entry takes 15 seconds tops to create. Perhaps maybe it takes 5 seconds more instead of 2 for that extra data. (Maybe.) Let's say you are on the high-end and use 25 unique, new materials per week (aside from the amount of time wasted looking for this material...) the additional data entry per week is ... less than 2 minutes.

I wrote it wrong, I know in your example you actually wrote "Reading - Dune". Which is over-simplified because you actually need to distinguish between:

Dune - L-R - Listening - reading L2
Dune - L-R - Listening - reading L2 and mimicking
Dune - L-R - Listening L2 and mimicking
Dune - L-R - Listening L2
Dune - L-R - Listening L2 reading L1
Dune - L-R - non specified / mixed
etc

Your "Reading - Dune" represented the Activity "Reading (L2 only) with word look-up" and you skipped all those underlined details. User can and will choose incorrectly if they can over-simplify like that.

But that's not even my point. My point is, with your format, a user who eventually performs 5 different Activities on a Book (read normally, read aloud, read while looking up words, read while listening, scriptorium, etc) will have to create 5 Activity Short Descriptions himself. Just like the Dune list above. That will quickly multiply to a lot of work because it's simply multiplication: Book x Activity. (Is there duplication check btw?) And with all that Book x Activity all going into 1 dropdown field, the dropdown will become awfully long to scroll through every single time a user has to record something. But those are just my 2nd, 3rd and 4th biggest concerns. The 1st biggest, as usual, is the fact that the more user involvement there is, the more errors there will be.

With my format, you buy a new book, you enter Book Title once, and that's it. Do anything you like with it and you won't have to recall whether you've done it before and whether a Description was created before, or what exact activity "Reading - Dune" refers to.

How do you separate different languages in your spreadsheet without identifying the language?

I am very user-oriented, especially in this case where I am the user , and I assume most participants are only doing 1 languge for the study, so I would make the spreadsheet convenient for the majority of users rather than the minority - only 1 language allowed per timesheet. Another language? Another timesheet on another tab or another file.

but then you need a third section for not books or film but for audio sources and where do you place books with audio? Perhaps a fourth section for that.

Yep, and your format or mine, the initial process is the same for the user - go to table & enter value - while with your format user enters twice as many fields. Chance of error and pressure for user is also less with my format because a user is unlikely to enter a Book title into a list already full of Movie titles.

How do YOU handle books with audio? "Words" or "Minutes" or 2 rows or?

I've solved the date issue by making the validation obligatory. Note that Google sheets forces a MM/DD format, as far as I can tell.

If you use English month names and add day of the week like I do on my screenshot, users will far more easily be able to see if their entry is correct:

09/12/2017 Sep? Dec?

vs

12 Sep Tue US interpretation
09 Dec Sat UK interpretation

On top of that, my 3rd validation is for Date to be within Study Period.

Don't remember why, but I've used Excel+Windows combinations that require Dec 9th to be entered as twelve-slash-nine and ones that require nine-slash-twelve.

In MS Excel, Ctrl+; inserts the current date.

How do you identify books acceptable for the study vs bilingual readers?

Wait a minute - I thought participants in the Study Group are not allowed to use any bilingual readers during the Study Period at all? Do you mean they are allowed to, just that they can't record it on the timesheet or that there has to be a way for rdearman to identify the disallowed bilingual reader?


Reminder: You can simply continue with your format and I'm happy to convert monthly. Thank you again!

[zenmonkey]

Wouldn't it be better to keep the number of spreadsheets used down to a minimum? If you have something better - post it. Or if you prefer to keep your own sheet personal, just be aware that if changes occur - it is up to you to maintain your collect method.

I think I understand what you mean by 'merged fields' here. But you could write just as easily "Dune" instead of "Book - Dune". It is open to allow you to have a talking field rather than having to enter a type.

The whole ERP comparison makes me smile - I'm currently involved in several SAP implementations - and doing it the "ERP way" is definitely the least user-friendly method I can think of. Maybe I'll write the interface in German.

No, actually you don't need to distinguish all those types of L-R activities per material. If you are doing a lot of L-R of different types with a Dune book and audio. You can simple put "Dune - L-R - non specified / mixed" and you are done. People wanted to be more specific - hence the multiple entries but you aren't obligated to do more than one entry for L/R activity.

But that's not even my point. My point is, with your format, a user who eventually performs 5 different Activities on a Book (read normally, read aloud, read while looking up words, read while listening, scriptorium, etc) will have to create 5 Activity Short Descriptions himself. Just like the Dune list above. That will quickly multiply to a lot of work because it's simply multiplication: Book x Activity. (Is there duplication check btw?) And with all that Book x Activity all going into 1 dropdown field, the dropdown will become awfully long to scroll through every single time a user has to record something. But those are just my 2nd, 3rd and 4th biggest concerns. The 1st biggest, as usual, is the fact that the more user involvement there is, the more errors there will be.

Clear. And I do get it now (I'm slow sometimes .) - that for someone using a lot of different activities with the same material and wanting to be very specific they are going to have up to x entries in the list. I'll think about it - maybe I'll rewrite it so that this list entry is simplified - but that may require additional checks on the material level (what I mentioned as book, audio, book and audio, apps , other...).

How do you separate different languages in your spreadsheet without identifying the language?

I am very user-oriented, especially in this case where I am the user , and I assume most participants are only doing 1 languge for the study, so I would make the spreadsheet convenient for the majority of users rather than the minority - only 1 language allowed per timesheet. Another language? Another timesheet on another tab or another file.

There are actually several people that have mentioned using it for multiple languages - so, being user-oriented means making it work for all without overcomplicating the collect. But if you are only writing your sheet for yourself, the point doesn't matter. I may code it so that single language users don't need to enter their study language more than once on the sheet.

Date issue:
In Excel those combos can be programmatically set, Google has made the decision that entering a short date 12/01 will be read as Dec 1st. I've set it so that you can either enter the short date or a '03 Apr' format. If data collect is done on a monthly basis this shouldn't be too much of an issue and easy to catch.

How do you identify books acceptable for the study vs bilingual readers?

Wait a minute - I thought participants in the Study Group are not allowed to use any bilingual readers during the Study Period at all? Do you mean they are allowed to, just that they can't record it on the timesheet or that there has to be a way for rdearman to identify the disallowed bilingual reader?

There is a bunch of stuff there that the Study Group isn't allowed to use. Remember that the sheet also tracks the activity of the Control Group. Which makes me think I'll have to re-write the sheet so that it differentiates between these and reduces error. Damn it.

Reminder: You can simply continue with your format and I'm happy to convert monthly. Thank you again!

Expect updates...

Here is a version you can actually edit or fill out, if you like: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Or if you prefer to keep your own sheet personal, just be aware that if changes occur - it is up to you to maintain your collect method.

Expect updates...

Noted and thank you. My own tracking is actually very simple because I'm always using the same materials and doing the same activities. The flexibility and expandability I put into my fake prototype spreadsheet were really just for other participants. So I'm good.

There are actually several people that have mentioned using it for multiple languages...
Wouldn't it be better to keep the number of spreadsheets used down to a minimum?

Iguanamon has always warned us to keep the number of languages simultaneously learned down to a minimum. There's a price to pay for ignoring advice from a wise man.

No, actually you don't need to distinguish all those types of L-R activities per material. If you are doing a lot of L-R of different types with a Dune book and audio. You can simple put "Dune - L-R - non specified / mixed" and you are done. People wanted to be more specific - hence the multiple entries but you aren't obligated to do more than one entry for L/R activity.

You know what? I've finally found out why I've been having so many more questions than other participants. Whatever you or RD asked us to do, I took it as something you really, really want us to try our very, very best to do. So when you gave us 100 Activities to choose from, I assumed you really, really want us to very, very carefully choose the best-best matching one, and only choose "Others" when it's absolutely impossible to choose otherwise. Yet here you're saying the opposite - that it's users who wanted 100 Activities to choose from. I don't know which view is correct, but if participants want to track something just for their own fun, then can always add Sub-Activities and Sub-Sub-Activities to their own spreadsheet without unnecessarily inflating my spreadsheet.

There is a bunch of stuff there that the Study Group isn't allowed to use. Remember that the sheet also tracks the activity of the Control Group. Which makes me think I'll have to re-write the sheet so that it differentiates between these and reduces error. Damn it.

Remember I asked you to put all instructions onto the spreadsheet? You've written notes on it - thank you for that - and I also mean stuff like this. If an Activity is not allowed in the Study Group, yes, please state so and make it red or something.

Coming to think of it, maybe simply pasting the contents of the Instructions pdf onto the spreadsheet would be a good idea. I can then read them whenever I procrastinate.

[zenmonkey]

Or if you prefer to keep your own sheet personal, just be aware that if changes occur - it is up to you to maintain your collect method.

Expect updates...

Noted and thank you. My own tracking is actually very simple because I'm always using the same materials and doing the same activities. The flexibility and expandability I put into my fake prototype spreadsheet were really just for other participants. So I'm good.

There are actually several people that have mentioned using it for multiple languages...
Wouldn't it be better to keep the number of spreadsheets used down to a minimum?

Iguanamon has always warned us to keep the number of languages simultaneously learned down to a minimum. There's a price to pay for ignoring advice from a wise man.

No, actually you don't need to distinguish all those types of L-R activities per material. If you are doing a lot of L-R of different types with a Dune book and audio. You can simple put "Dune - L-R - non specified / mixed" and you are done. People wanted to be more specific - hence the multiple entries but you aren't obligated to do more than one entry for L/R activity.

You know what? I've finally found out why I've been having so many more questions than other participants. Whatever you or RD asked us to do, I took it as something you really, really want us to try our very, very best to do. So when you gave us 100 Activities to choose from, I assumed you really, really want us to very, very carefully choose the best-best matching one, and only choose "Others" when it's absolutely impossible to choose otherwise. Yet here you're saying the opposite - that it's users who wanted 100 Activities to choose from. I don't know which view is correct, but if participants want to track something just for their own fun, then can always add Sub-Activities and Sub-Sub-Activities to their own spreadsheet without unnecessarily inflating my spreadsheet.

There is a bunch of stuff there that the Study Group isn't allowed to use. Remember that the sheet also tracks the activity of the Control Group. Which makes me think I'll have to re-write the sheet so that it differentiates between these and reduces error. Damn it.

Remember I asked you to put all instructions onto the spreadsheet? You've written notes on it - thank you for that - and I also mean stuff like this. If an Activity is not allowed in the Study Group, yes, please state so and make it red or something.

Coming to think of it, maybe simply pasting the contents of the Instructions pdf onto the spreadsheet would be a good idea. I can then read them whenever I procrastinate.

Thanks for the feedback! So after our last exchange I decided to look into field validation, creating something a little more foolproof. For example, if you are part of the study group, you should not be able to select Assimil for the study language...

And a few hours after ... and after breaking everything. (Thankfully, there are no puppies to kick around here...)
Well, I discovered more about google sheets that I wanted to but I've built something with recursive validations.

For the study design and the number of possible data types, etc. Honestly, I am not running this - I'm building from the requests of others including yours and trying to come up with a workable compromise. It is not my study, I won't work on the analysis - and once I'm done with spreadsheet(s) I'm going to step back to my participant role. Perhaps I'm at fault for not taking an executing command decision...

So, I've redesigned it without the data merge and with a (hidden) validation table that allows one to choose a material type, then it will only propose the activities for that material type in the drop down. Unfortunately this will only run on google sheets - google and excel do field validation quite differently. The extract page still needs updating.

So for now that is it. Draft 6 (google sheets only, has script magic and unicorn blood.):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Draft 4 (may be adapted to work on in excel, maybe):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I won't be making the decision on which sheet to use. Rdearman owns that. It can be run with both but then someone will have a fun time on the consolidation of data.

Iguanamon is a great guy and his advice is solid and good. But, personally, studying more than one language at a time is my only way to stay sane. Otherwise I get bored and drop all language learning. As to others, it seems that about half of the participants I've seen interested in the study are proposing using more than one language. Rdearman allowed it - therefore it needs to be tracked preferable without multiple spreadsheets. But I understand that you prefer to not to fill in the extra data - so I've spent time to assure that it doesn't need to be entered.

In the new spreadsheet, for those participating with only one language, you only enter that once in the setup field and if you are in the study group or the control group. Ignore it everywhere else (in the next update it will autofill). For those with a control or study language the proposed/allowed activities will be differentiated in the drop downs.

Draft 6 is a little fresh, may have a bug or two in the classification but should show now some stricter validation and be easier to use.
I've left it open so people can play with the link provided or one can also save it to their google drive.

I probably will not spend much more time on this I still need to rebuild what I broke in the new version, as I tried to make it run on Excel/Mac/PC and Google.But these are getting to 'good enough'. Now we need the boss' input.

This weekend I hope to travel a bit so, I won't touch this too much...

[zenmonkey]

Latest update, where I've placed back the color warnings if you leave a field blank that should be filed out:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing