Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby Serpent » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:19 pm

Cavesa wrote:It is very simple, a study made totally in today's fashion. Choose a subject and results someone will surely pay you for, choose the methods and sample to get such results, write the paperwork to get money, and publish.

As they claim,
Our hypotheses were twofold: light drinking (<7 units weekly) is protective against adverse brain outcomes and cognitive decline and heavier drinking (above recommended guidelines) is associated with adverse brain and cognitive outcomes.


Also, one unit of alcohol is 8g or 10ml, so that a glass of wine is 2.4 units, while a pint of strong beer/lager/cider is 3 units.
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby Cavesa » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Serpent wrote:
Cavesa wrote:It is very simple, a study made totally in today's fashion. Choose a subject and results someone will surely pay you for, choose the methods and sample to get such results, write the paperwork to get money, and publish.

As they claim,
Our hypotheses were twofold: light drinking (<7 units weekly) is protective against adverse brain outcomes and cognitive decline and heavier drinking (above recommended guidelines) is associated with adverse brain and cognitive outcomes.


Also, one unit of alcohol is 8g or 10ml, so that a glass of wine is 2.4 units, while a pint of strong beer/lager/cider is 3 units.


As their claim, they didn't try to prove anything new or noteworthy. Yes, it can be a nice tiny bit of puzzle for some metaanalysis, but nothing more.

I find the sample questionable, and the goal too. The light drinking is already proven to slightly protect the brain by protection from atherosclerosis (vascular dementia is probably the most common one these days). The heavier drinking's effects are already documented well.

A glass of wine varies between countries or even restaurants (from 100 mm to 250 ml, not sure about the British standard), beers too (a strong beer can be a 14° or 22°). But anyways, we need to talk in these common terms with patients, as no normal person is ordering 2 units in a restaurant, and the restaurant doesn't put the relevant units to the individual beverages. I think this communication problem may affect all such studies.

If we take these examples as the standard the study participants were drinking, it was:
1.very hard to drink whole glasses or pints and stay within the 7 units/week limit. It would mean drinking 1 glass or pint twice per week.
2.weird the researchers chose a different and more strict moderate drinking defition than the one widely officially used (which is 14 units per week for both men and women, with maximum of 3 units within one day for a man and 2 for a woman).
3.almost impossible to both be a moderate consumer by the study's definition AND profit from any protective effects of alcohol, as that is linked to small everyday doses.

I would find it much more interesting, if the study followed today's trend and studied or compared the effects of individual alcoholic beverages. The effects of wine and beer are being studied these days, and definitely not only with focus on alcohol. In these two cases, positive effects of some of the chemical components on various aspects of health are being studied and documented, with a lot of promise for the future. I find it highly probable that the future recommendations on alcohol consumption will take these into account at some point and will define the norms with several groups of beverages on mind.
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:39 pm

Serpent wrote:
On bmj.com, it's possible to post a response to the article. Some are very critical of the study's statistical relevance.

See especially David Curtis's response.
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby Serpent » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:31 pm

Yeah I was simply pointing out that their expected findings were the opposite of what they found wrt moderate consumption.
One more thing is that the tests were presumably randomized, but this means that your performance may depend on which letters or topics you get. They should've compared the performance by letter/topic, to see whether some correlated with universally lower (or higher) scores. Not to mention that the "lexical fluency" is really about the spelling, and while they might have ignored spelling mistakes elsewhere in the word, presumably you have to get the first letter right to make it count.
BT I've noticed that the team has people with Finnish, Hungarian, Italian, possibly German names. Of course we don't know whether they actually speak these languages, but it's a shame if they're so used to English that they didn't consider the factors we've discussed here.

I submitted a response too. Hopefully they'll publish it soon :D
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby Serpent » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:55 pm

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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby leosmith » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:57 pm


Very nicely done - I hope they answer!
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby sfuqua » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:31 am

Inspired by blaurebell, today I tried doing 20 minutes of self talk into a mirror after drinking 4 glasses of wine. (I'm bored and I'm a thousand miles from my family until tomorrow)
I did much better in Spanish than I usually do; she's talking to another guy, but she keeps smiling at me.

French just turned away and rolled her eyes. If only I could go back in time and try my minimal French on the beautiful French exchange student at my high school, but alas, it's been 50 years. But alas indeed.

Tagalog talked with me, but seemed bored. The club is pretty loud to talk.

Samoan complemented me on my Samoan, but she went to dance with some guy, and I think she left with him.

I think I'm ready to sleep. Maybe I'll dream in Spanish. Or maybe even French. Wish me luck.

I think alcohol may help some shy people start to talk. :lol:
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby sfuqua » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:03 am

Seriously, I didn't mean to disparage the huge problems caused by alcohol.
At least some research has shown that very moderate alcohol use can positively affect fluency. alcohol_and_foreign_languages_a_small_amount_can_make_you_speak_better_but.html
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:32 am

I drink about either 0 or 5-7 units a week (1 or 2 beers, 1 or 2 glasses of wine...), depending on the week - I'd wonder if these results are corrected for things like weight, sleep apnea, cardiovascular function issues, incident dementia which have a higher tendency to occur with heavier drinkers.

A glass here or there does make my German much better. Frau Germania is a little fickle, she usually leaves the party early. Alone.
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Re: Study suggests even moderate drinking could affect language fluency

Postby Systematiker » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:09 pm

I drink about the same as Zenmonkey (plus Sunday mornings, which can be nothing to most of a chalice left), but I'm also only about 68 kilo, and I suspect that makes a difference.

It does seem to help most languages, though it definitely makes my Hochdeutsch become more Bairisch or Schwäbisch
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