How much Grindage?

[leosmith]

We talk a lot about extensive vs. intensive studying here. Many people use extensive methods only. Others do a combination of the two. I haven’t met anyone who does intensive only, but there probably are some. I wanted to dig down a little bit deeper and discuss what I think makes study intensive. I want to talk about what I call grindage (RIP Pauley Shore). Here’s my definition:

Grindage - applying effort to recall something

Of course this definition is tenuous, as many definitions in language learning are, but I’m trying to describe the type of effort used when you don’t instantly know a word on the back of a flashcard, and you push your brain to recall for a few seconds. That’s just an example; there are many other situations where one may need to make this type of effort. It’s a bit of a question of time too. If you get the answer in less than a second or two, maybe the same chemical reaction is taking place for a shorter period (I’m no rocket surgeon), but I don’t consider that to be grindage.

Grindage shouldn’t be confused with grunt work, or just any old work that requires effort, is tedious, tests your patients, etc. It specifically requires recollection, or retrieval of information from your mind.

Grindage can take place with any aspect of language learning I can think of off the top of my head. For example, when trying to translate, searching for words when you converse, struggling to remember a grammar pattern when you read, etc. Some language learning methods require a lot of grindage, some don’t.

The reason I defined grindage is that I’d like to know how much you think we should apply when learning a language. Note that I distinguish it from intensive activities because I think you can do intensive activities with different levels of grindage, but it’s the actual amount of grindage that I feel is more important. Is it a good thing - should we do as many high grindage activities as possible? Is it a bad thing – should we avoid it as much as possible? Should we set a time limit on recalling?

I’ve been thinking about this issue for a long time. I wondered how people like Luca and Arguelles could learn languages without any focused vocabulary review, like flashcards and word lists. I tried this and failed miserably, and I was having a hard time believing our minds were that different. Then I started considering the rest of their learning methods. It seems they both do other high grindage activities. Now maybe different people require a different amount of grindage, or need it to be combined with different activities, I don’t know. But my theory is that grindage discrepancies are the reason why some need vocabulary review and some don’t.

Michel Thomas used to always tell his students not to try to remember anything. Steve Kaufmann seems to be against any form of learning that requires grindage. Many of our fellow members do what they call “passive” flashcards, using them more for exposure than recall.

Personally, I think that it’s a good thing, but it will drive you nuts if you do too much of it. I use it when I do flashcards, grammar exercises and converse (that is when I’m trying to push the envelope in conversation, like I am now with Korean). I don’t use it when I listen, read or write. I feel that frequently forcing the mind to recall creates or strengthens synapses in the brain at a faster rate than just letting it happen passively, but I could be wrong.

[smallwhite]

A few questions since I haven't understood you well.

Grindage - applying effort to recall something

...It’s a bit of a question of time too. If you get the answer in less than a second or two, maybe the same chemical reaction is taking place for a shorter period (I’m no rocket surgeon), but I don’t consider that to be grindage.

So you're defining grindage as applying effort to recall something for 2 seconds or more?

The reason I defined grindage is that I’d like to know how much you think we should apply when learning a language.

What is your learning goal when you say "should"? Should xxx in order to learn faster, in order to learn better, to make learning more enjoyable, to prevent burnout which is important because if you burnout you simply give up, etc.

...it’s the actual amount of grindage that I feel is more important.

Quantity (number of times of recall attempt) or time duration each attempt (5 seconds better than 2 seconds) or total duration of recalling or intensity?

... Luca and Arguelles... focused vocabulary review... they both do other high grindage activities...

What other high grindage activities do they do?

Steve Kaufmann seems to be against any form of learning that requires grindage.

I think he uses the "LingQs" flashcard function on his website.

I use it when I do flashcards, grammar exercises and converse...
I don’t use it when I listen, read or write...

I don't understand what you mean by using or not using it. When you do flashcards, grammar exercises and converse, you think for 2 seconds or more for the word or answer, whereas when you write, when you can't recall a word in 2 seconds you just skip it?

[blaurebell]

I actually read intensively for the first 5000 pages and the grindage factor goes down the longer I keep going. At the beginning all is very strenuous and it becomes easier and easier with time until reading and listening are simply enjoyable and extensive activities. Since I get lots of recall with intensive reading, I actually don't need to use flashcards at all. French I learned completely without flashcards, just with Learning with texts and I found it very enjoyable rather than straining. With Russian now it's a bit of a bigger stretch, because Russian simply has so many more words to learn. I think it's pretty impossible to learn a language without it being a strain, because the brain needs to adapt, remember stuff and that's simply hard, especially at the beginning when it's forced to remember too many new things all at once. There is always some amount of explicit grammar study necessary too and for me it comes back after massive input when I'm in the activation stage and go through grindage heavy grammar courses - FSI, progressive grammar books. So, I would say, grindage is always there for me at the beginning while trying to push through the comprehension barrier and when starting to produce the language. Over time grindage starts to become less and less of a factor until dealing with the language becomes effortless - fluent. Of course one can try to minimise the grindage too, but then I think grindage heavy activities are actually more effective and efficient. In English and Spanish I never did any intensive reading and with English I needed about 20,000 pages to reach the same point that I reached in French after 5000 pages of intensive reading. Also, the brain needs really massive massive input to deduce the grammar rules for correct output - thousands of hours - and if that is combined with incorrect output, it might not ever be effective. It's much more efficient to learn the grammar rules with grindage heavy grammar exercises.

[blaurebell]

I like what you say about Learning with Texts for French but the comparison to Russian is what i want to respond to.

I'm a huge proponent of just enjoyable input - i've never done flashcards or 'study' except for going over grammar points, but i think my outlook would change if i had to learn something so unrelated to English.

There are so many similarities in French to English that i don't think you ever need to flashcard. If it were Japanese though, i think it might have a place.

The problem with flashcards is that they happen in the wrong context. Just because I remember something when I see a certain flashcard, doesn't mean that I remember the same thing in the context of a book or a TV show. I often have the phenomenon that I remember that I "should" know a word because I've seen it on a flashcard, but actually can't remember what it means when I see it in a book. I wasted 50h on flashcards with Russian and they didn't help me at all for reading! So annoying

Flashcards work great for some people, but over the years I've come to realise that I myself hate them too much and therefore they can't really help me effectively. The brain doesn't like to remember uncomfortable things and flashcards are basically torture for me, so my brain puts in more effort to forget than to remember. I used to think that flashcards are a necessary evil, but right now I'm doing just fine without them. LWT is effective even with a language as different as Russian. It takes longer and it gives me a headache faster, but it works! For me of course. If I'd hate intensive reading it would be just as ineffective as flashcards. I'm actually curious to try whether it works for Japanese too, since the writing system might make it a lot more difficult. Maybe in a few years!

Brings me back to the grindage topic: Just because it's grindage, doesn't mean that one has to hate it. I love playing with a good dictionary and a page turner, but typing in all the definitions is still grindage and an intensive activity. I basically try to minimise the grindage I hate and replace it with grindage I love. I hate drilling grammar before I can understand a language, because it's not effective for reaching the goal of understanding. One doesn't have to produce correct grammar to understand! However, I get a sort of perverse pleasure out of grammar drilling once I break through the comprehension barrier, because then it starts to become meaningful for correct production.

[smallwhite]

... but typing in all the definitions is still grindage and an intensive activity.

Your usage of the word "grindage" seems different from what OP specifically defined. Or is it just me missing how typing definitions involves OP's definition of grindage? -

Grindage - applying effort to recall something

Of course this definition is tenuous, as many definitions in language learning are, but I’m trying to describe the type of effort used when you don’t instantly know a word on the back of a flashcard, and you push your brain to recall for a few seconds. That’s just an example; there are many other situations where one may need to make this type of effort. It’s a bit of a question of time too. If you get the answer in less than a second or two, maybe the same chemical reaction is taking place for a shorter period (I’m no rocket surgeon), but I don’t consider that to be grindage.

Grindage shouldn’t be confused with grunt work, or just any old work that requires effort, is tedious, tests your patients, etc. It specifically requires recollection, or retrieval of information from your mind.

[blaurebell]

Your usage of the word "grindage" seems different from what OP specifically defined. Or is it just me missing how typing definitions involves OP's definition of grindage? -

You're right, I wasn't clear. LWT has colour coding, so I use any word form that isn't marked as known for recall. I try to remember precisely the dictionary definition, then type the correct definition in for all the words that aren't in the database yet. Since many words have many word forms I get lots of prompts for recall with writing and also prompts for words that are already in the database - prompts for recall without writing, usually for already better known words. So, lots of recall, where the most effort of recall goes into the words that don't have many forms in the database yet. That's where my lack of clarity came from, I automatically associated the words where I need to type with more effort required for recall since I'm less familiar with these words, i.e. grindage.

[mcthulhu]

I can't say I like the term; when you graft a new meaning onto a word that already has several meanings associated with it (including "food"), that's just confusing.

What you call "forcing the mind" to recall sounds a lot like practicing the retrieval of knowledge by self-testing, which is a standard learning strategy; see https://www.goconqr.com/en/examtime/blo ... provement/, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 125928.htm, etc. etc. So, the more the better, I'd say. Even looking away from a book and trying to remember what you just read is helpful. Exposure alone isn't enough.

[tommus]

(I’m no rocket surgeon), but I don’t consider that to be grindage.
Grindage shouldn’t be confused with grunt work, or just any old work that requires effort, is tedious, tests your patients

I'm using some grindage to try to figure out what a rocket surgeon is. And I assume the "patients" are those of the rocket surgeon.

[Xenops]

I think Steve Kauffman and Michel Thomas avoid it because it's a selling point: "you don't have to work to learn a language, you just soak it up like a sponge!"

If I'm awake enough when I review Anki cards or do a Pimsleur unit, I do grindage: rather than waiting for the answer and being passive, I guess the correct answer before I flip the card or hear the native speaker on Pimsleur. It keeps it a little more interesting: how well do I know this material?

With Anki, I notice that I do recognize words from the card deck when "in the wild", particular with music or TV shows, so it might be boring, but it works.

[leosmith]

So you're defining grindage as applying effort to recall something for 2 seconds or more?

yes

What is your learning goal when you say "should"? Should xxx in order to learn faster, in order to learn better, to make learning more enjoyable, to prevent burnout which is important because if you burnout you simply give up, etc.

I think you sort of answered your own question. I do grindage to improve my efficiency, but I know from experience that too much has a detrimental effect, for example.

Quantity (number of times of recall attempt) or time duration each attempt (5 seconds better than 2 seconds) or total duration of recalling or intensity?

I was thinking total accumulated time, but maybe the factors you mention are better indicators; I'm not sure.

What other high grindage activities do they do?

Luca does tons of translation. I'm having a hard time finding Arguelles grindage info, so maybe I'm wrong about him.

I think he uses the "LingQs" flashcard function on his website.

He experimented with it a bit in the past, but says he rarely does it anymore.

I don't understand what you mean by using or not using it. When you do flashcards, grammar exercises and converse, you think for 2 seconds or more for the word or answer, whereas when you write, when you can't recall a word in 2 seconds you just skip it?

Although I try to answer as quickly as possible, I usually give myself as much time as I need when I do flashcards. I would guess over half my cards take more than 2 seconds. When I write, I do a sort of scriptorium, and I have no qualms about looking at the answer if I get stuck.