Some questions about learning French

[PeterMollenburg]

Yeah, fawn is not a word i'm overly accustomed to either, using it that is, in my native English.

Don't you guys have bambi in Australia?? There are soooo many deer and, seasonally, fawns in America it is really hard to imagine this (I am sure you have all kinds of animals that I don't even have a name for in English or French!)

Deer don't feature much here. There are some deer farms, and I heard recently they exist in the wild here... apparently... (someone in passing was talking about hitting one in their car), although to what extent I don't know as I've never ever seen one in Australia in the wild.

If you're into snakes, spiders, crocodiles, sharks and deadly jellyfish, then sure, come to Australia. In actual fact, foreigners are often put off by all these deadly creatures here, but crocodiles are only in the northern parts of Australia, sharks are, well, rare enough, unless you surf a lot, deadly jellyfish are also isolated to certain areas and snakes, well I've seen a LOT of deadly snakes in my time, but deaths here from snake bites are extremely rare. We don't work the land like they do in India (without modern machinery) where thousands die every year, and health care here is equipped to usually deal with it... IF it happens. Man I"m getting off track. The deadly spiders are either not so deadly (my father's been bitten by a couple and decided not to go to hospital) or don't live near me, thankfully (funnel web spiders around Sydney are very dangerous I'm led to believe). So after all that, no, deer don't feature here much at all. Bambi! pfft, ummm, i'm clearly very busy, must skip off now into the winter sunshine...

[smallwhite]

Don't you guys have bambi in Australia??

I did think of Bambi after learning that a fawn is a baby deer!

I am sure you have all kinds of animals that I don't even have a name for in English or French!

You're right, so my vocabulary is regionalised (Down-Underised?) and I know the word "joey" instead - baby kangaroos, baby Tasmanian devils and I think young humans, too, by extension.

[aokoye]

Hmmm... I started to use the IPA when I was 12. My school-prescribed English dictionary had it. My estimate of 30 mins is for a complete beginner, though, but counting just the IPA part and excluding the pronunciation part (that PM keeps talking about) (and yet I get told off for).

I don't think you were told off about that more so people thought you weren't in the norm in terms of the speed it took you to learn the IPA symbols for English.

I can't be the only one who's used the IPA since childhood? How do native English speakers look up pronunciation of English words when they were little and before dictionaries had sound?

Children in inner circle anglophone countries don't learn English pronunciation via IPA. The only L1 speakers of English (or really any other language) I can actually imagine who look up the pronunciation of words in their L1 via finding an IPA transcription are linguists (including speech pathologists) and maybe some classically trained singers because they already know it. Most dictionaries aimed primarily at L1 English speakers use some sort of phonetic transcription that isn't IPA. For example, if I look up the word "detritus" on dictionary.com the default pronunciation system that they use says it's pronounced /dih-trahy-tuh s/. If I click the IPA toggle it gives me [dɪˈtraɪ təs]. For whatever reason they space out the syllabus - if I were to look the same word up on OED's online dictionary they'd take the spaces out for the IPA. I highly doubt there's a standard in the non-IPA pronunciation guides that various dictionaries use.

From what I understand people whose L1 is Hebrew look up the words on a regular basis when reading and the dictionaries often include nikud as opposed to IPA or another system. How do native Cantonese speakers look up the pronunciation of a word?

[PeterMollenburg]

I can't be the only one who's used the IPA since childhood? How do native English speakers look up pronunciation of English words when they were little and before dictionaries had sound?

Children in inner circle anglophone countries don't learn English pronunciation via IPA. The only L1 speakers of English (or really any other language) I can actually imagine who look up the pronunciation of words in their L1 via finding an IPA transcription are linguists (including speech pathologists) and maybe some classically trained singers because they already know it.

Indeed. I never looked up a word for pronunciation purposes when I was growing up/going to school (including high school) from memory. And if I did, I likely couldn't make much sense of the sound systems, IPA or otherwise. Native speakers generally learn simply by listening. L2 is a whole 'nother story, which we know, and the methods employed to acquire pronunciation in a second language vary quite a bit of course among individuals and cultural contexts.

[Adrianslont]

Yeah, fawn is not a word i'm overly accustomed to either, using it that is, in my native English.

Don't you guys have bambi in Australia?? There are soooo many deer and, seasonally, fawns in America it is really hard to imagine this (I am sure you have all kinds of animals that I don't even have a name for in English or French!)

I believe there are feral deer here and there but I've never seen one. But I live in the city. Still I've seen plenty of roos, wallabies, possums, snakes and emus when in the country. I learned the word fawn from Walt Disney and American tv in general. Lots of deer in New Zealand I hear.

[smallwhite]

I don't think you were told off about that more so people thought you weren't in the norm in terms of the speed it took you to learn the IPA symbols for English.

I didn't understand that sentence
I never mentioned the speed it took me to learn the IPA symbols for English (or any language) in this thread. I estimated that it would take a complete beginner 30 mins to learn that French IPA list, if that's what you meant.

For example, if I look up the word "detritus" on dictionary.com the default pronunciation system that they use says it's pronounced /dih-trahy-tuh s/. If I click the IPA toggle it gives me [dɪˈtraɪ təs].

The IPA notation and the notation à la English for Dummies used to be placed side by side. Then they changed it to the current toggle. At first, the page would save my preference for the IPA. Now it wouldn't and the page always loads to the Dummies style notation, though it could just be my browser. They show British spellings and pronunciations here as well.

Halfway down the page is the result from Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition. It gives /dɪˈtraɪtəs/. This bit is always British-only.

How do native Cantonese speakers look up the pronunciation of a word?

I was taught how to use the Cantonese dictionary in Year 4, I think, age ~10. I'm looking at the current version of my school-prescribed dictionary and there are 2 pronunciation notations: IPA-including-tone and homophone-without-tone. We were taught to just refer to the homophone - most characters have homophones. When a character doesn't have any homophones, a character with the same "spelling" but a different tone would be used. So, just referring to the homophone is actually not enough, you need to look at the tone (in the IPA) as well, but we weren't taught that. We weren't taught the IPA bit either and I didn't use it. In fact, I'm not sure if it was the IPA they used back then, but I'm sure it was in Latin alphabets.

[Dragon27]

All this talk of learning IPA, where are all the links to places to learn it for various languages?

If you ever think about tackling something even more hardcore and in-depth than just regular IPA, you might consider canIPA - a phonetic transcription system developed by an italian phonetician Luciano Canepari. The page I linked to contains some free downloadable PDFs (his handbooks are rather expensive if you consider ordering them on the book-selling sites) which contain very detailed descriptions of pronunciations of some important world languages (like English, French, German, Arabic, Hindi, Russian, Chinese and others). It also contains phonosynthesis sketches of less popular languages of Europe and Asia (lots of them!).
Two downsides - a) this system is not as widespread as regular IPA (i.e. no one uses is for dictionaries and stuff), though these books contain enough information to be useful on their own; b) it is rather complicated (it aims to be very accurate), and you have to invest some time to studying its terminology, ideas etc. (fortunately, there's enough information in the available pdf-files for self-study), but it is very rewarding in the end.

[Tillumadoguenirurm]

(You can skip the first two paragraphs.)


From the little research I’ve done, it seems like there’s a huge difference between written and spoken French. I would ultimately like to become proficient at both. I’m assuming that the spoken form is basically a simplification of the written form. Is this correct? Also, considering this, would it be best to focus on written French to acquire a strong foundation and then focus on spoken French?

Which form of the language do college courses typically teach? Only written? Both?

Does anybody know which form Rosetta Stone teaches? I’ve been using it for pronunciation guidance and vocabulary practice.

Any general tips for somebody looking to learn French?

Thanks in advance!

Like someone else said, there's sometimes a huge difference between spoken and written Engllish too. There's nothing about French that makes it extraordinarily more difficult than English, and it's really not.

I can't say if you should focus more on written or more on spoken. I have, because I'm quite lazy, learned most of my French through various podcasts and radioshows and etc. The result is that I can hear quite well, but I have no idea how most of it is spelled.
There seems to be people around here that have learned French mostly from reading and writing and who can write damned well, but struggle with understanding spoken French? A solid knowledge of the phonology can't hurt at any rate. Pretty much what you'll find about English on non-English language forums.

[Seneca]

All this talk of learning IPA, where are all the links to places to learn it for various languages?

If you ever think about tackling something even more hardcore and in-depth than just regular IPA, you might consider canIPA - a phonetic transcription system developed by an italian phonetician Luciano Canepari. The page I linked to contains some free downloadable PDFs (his handbooks are rather expensive if you consider ordering them on the book-selling sites) which contain very detailed descriptions of pronunciations of some important world languages (like English, French, German, Arabic, Hindi, Russian, Chinese and others). It also contains phonosynthesis sketches of less popular languages of Europe and Asia (lots of them!).
Two downsides - a) this system is not as widespread as regular IPA (i.e. no one uses is for dictionaries and stuff), though these books contain enough information to be useful on their own; b) it is rather complicated (it aims to be very accurate), and you have to invest some time to studying its terminology, ideas etc. (fortunately, there's enough information in the available pdf-files for self-study), but it is very rewarding in the end.

That is pretty cool. I am still on the hunt for a nice, relatively simple Italian chart just for kicks (since Italian pronunciation is not so tricky). I'll have to click through those Italian links sometime.

[aokoye]

For example, if I look up the word "detritus" on dictionary.com the default pronunciation system that they use says it's pronounced /dih-trahy-tuh s/. If I click the IPA toggle it gives me [dɪˈtraɪ təs].

The IPA notation and the notation à la English for Dummies used to be placed side by side. Then they changed it to the current toggle. At first, the page would save my preference for the IPA. Now it wouldn't and the page always loads to the Dummies style notation, though it could just be my browser. They show British spellings and pronunciations here as well.

Halfway down the page is the result from Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition. It gives /dɪˈtraɪtəs/. This bit is always British-only.

Yeah one of the fun/amusing parts of my linguistics classes that involve just about any amount of IPA transcription is looking at the differences in pronunciation based off of one's dialect. We tend to go much farther than the "marry merry mary" and "cot caught" distinctions.

How do native Cantonese speakers look up the pronunciation of a word?

I was taught how to use the Cantonese dictionary in Year 4, I think, age ~10. I'm looking at the current version of my school-prescribed dictionary and there are 2 pronunciation notations: IPA-including-tone and homophone-without-tone. We were taught to just refer to the homophone - most characters have homophones. When a character doesn't have any homophones, a character with the same "spelling" but a different tone would be used. So, just referring to the homophone is actually not enough, you need to look at the tone (in the IPA) as well, but we weren't taught that. We weren't taught the IPA bit either and I didn't use it. In fact, I'm not sure if it was the IPA they used back then, but I'm sure it was in Latin alphabets.

I don't remember when I first learned how to use a dictionary in school - maybe 3rd grade (so ~8 years old). I don't remember if we were taught to use it for pronunciation purposes but I can make an educated guess that there wasn't IPA in the dictionaries we used. When I first took German in 9th grade we did the whole dictionary exercise all over again and while there likely was IPA in the dictionaries we were given I know we weren't taught it. I am almost positive were taught pronunciation rules in such a way in which IPA was not involved.

Meanwhile when I took history of English last summer we learned how to use the OED's online (subscription based) dictionary which most definitely has IPA, among other things. We mainly used it to look up the origin and etymology of words. This means that I have been taught how to use dictionaries three times in my 30 years, 4 if you count "this is how you use the glossary in your Hebrew textbook." Though I will say I did learn things every time so that's good!

This discussion almost makes me want to take the teaching pronunciation class that my uni offers as part of it's TESOL program but I will resist and take grammar for TESOL instead.