What is real language?

General discussion about learning languages
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SophiaMerlin_II
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Re: What is real language?

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Sat May 20, 2017 12:07 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
SophiaMerlin_II wrote: ... étude ... I wouldn't consider them "real" music. ... Then again, when it comes to classical type music I am a complete dunce ...
Need I say more?


At least give me points for admitting I honestly have no idea. :lol:
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Re: What is real language?

Postby sjintje » Sat May 20, 2017 12:09 pm

I'm not sure I even know what this thread is about, but attemps in language courses to make their dialogues more naturalistic sounding are mostly just irritating.

There's a similar problem with audio books. The written text may have a dialogue like:

...
-Yes
-Oh.
-Ummm

which your eye scans in a millisecond and continues with the story, but in an audio book is rendered as:

- Yes
2 second pause
-Oh
2 second pause
-Ummm
2 second pause.

Even more serious dialogues that look fine in writing often end up sounding very artificial when actually spoken.
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Re: What is real language?

Postby Speakeasy » Sat May 20, 2017 1:00 pm

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:
Speakeasy wrote:
SophiaMerlin_II wrote: ... étude ... I wouldn't consider them "real" music. ... Then again, when it comes to classical type music I am a complete dunce ...
Need I say more?
At least give me points for admitting I honestly have no idea. :lol:
Were a composer to change the title of a composition from "Étude No.67" to "Allegro, Op.10, No.12" or to "Danse des âmes condamnées", would the piece be transformed into "real" music? Select the music of any recording artist that you genuinely appreciate. Would changing the titles of their very best songs to "Étude no. x, y, z" transform them into "fake" music? What criteria would you choose to make your decisions? What qualifies you to make such a judgment?
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Re: What is real language?

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Sat May 20, 2017 1:33 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
SophiaMerlin_II wrote:
Speakeasy wrote:
SophiaMerlin_II wrote: ... étude ... I wouldn't consider them "real" music. ... Then again, when it comes to classical type music I am a complete dunce ...
Need I say more?
At least give me points for admitting I honestly have no idea. :lol:
Were a composer to change the title of a composition from "Étude No.67" to "Allegro, Op.10, No.12" or to "Danse des âmes condamnées", would the piece be transformed into "real" music? Select the music of any recording artist that you genuinely appreciate. Would changing the titles of their very best songs to "Étude no. x, y, z" transform them into "fake" music? What criteria would you choose to make your decisions? What qualifies you to make such a judgment?


Would changing the name of something meant to help you master a specific skill make it into something else? No... A rose by any other name. That doesn't change what it was designed for/how it was designed. Would I, a mere pleb, even notice an etude or an allegro or a concerto if it hit me upside the face? Nope.

If Ayreon, or Ghost, or Sabaton, or any other such metal band came out with a song entitled "etude #__" I would probably laugh and then assume:

Ayreon is making another piece about Ayreon, the blind minstrel, who was the unfortunate recipient of the future's attempt to change the past, but became something of a Cassandra.

Ghost was making a socio-political commentary on the worship of all things old as the height of culture. Or about a satan-worshipping, or murderous, or avaricious composer who is infamous for some reason.

That Sabaton was doing a history piece relating to some historical military figure who also happened to be an accomplished composer.

Would any of them be designed to teach music? No. If there's some sort of normal form associated with an etude, would they follow it? Probably not. (Except perhaps Ayreon. He's about the only artist I know of who can make a flute not bleed my ears)

But again, do I know classical music? No, I don't. As the quote I posted earlier states, apparently quite a lot of important and well-respected people would consider them "real" music, and do perform them at expensive events in front of people who do enjoy, appreciate, and probably know quite a lot about classical music.

Am I saying that they are somehow fake? That they are suddenly, I don't know, just noise? No. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that because they were designed to be used at teaching aids, that they had goals other than the actual sound itself. They had the goal of teaching specific skills. If you can think of a better name for that, some sort of term to separate it from materials that were designed without that goal in mind, then I'd be happy to switch to that term.

I'm not saying they don't have artistic or musical merit. People who are in a far better position to judge that have already shown, by their actions, that they clearly do see the musical and artistic merit in these pieces.

There's literally no more ways I can explain what I think about this. I'm repeating myself I think. :lol: I think no matter what we're not going to agree. And since you obviously know a lot more about music than I do, you're probably the one who's right anyway. I just don't see it the same way you do though.
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Re: What is real language?

Postby aokoye » Sat May 20, 2017 1:43 pm

SophiaMerlin_II wrote:What I'm saying is that the Lorax has a message. The Lorax is not written to show grammar. The Lorax has a very obvious socio-political thrust about environmentalism, not about grammar... So there, the content is the focal point, again, not the grammar. Just because something follows an expectation of form (grammar, punctuation) doesn't mean that it is a slave to it. Form should AID communication, not be the end goal.
The point that you've missed however, in terms of almost all of Dr Seuss' books was to write them in such a way that early readers could understand them. That meant that he used grammatical structures and words that early readers could understand without getting discouraged. Children's books are, in many respects, similar to graded readers and in some instances they actually are graded readers. Something can have social commentary and be written in such a way that early readers or readers with low literacy can read them. These two things are not actually in opposition with each other.

An étude (/ ˈeɪtjuːd/; French pronunciation: [eˈtyd], a French word meaning study) is an instrumental musical composition, usually short, of considerable difficulty, and designed to provide practice material for perfecting a particular musical skill. The tradition of writing études emerged in the early 19th century with the rapidly growing popularity of the piano. Of the vast number of études from that era some are still used as teaching material (particularly pieces by Carl Czerny and Muzio Clementi), and a few, by major composers such as Frédéric Chopin, Franz Liszt and Claude Debussy, achieved a place in today's concert repertory. Études written in the 20th century include those related to traditional ones (György Ligeti) and those that require wholly unorthodox technique (John Cage).


No, I wouldn't consider them "real" music. That doesn't mean that it's not useful. Then again, when it comes to classical type music I am a complete dunce, and would sooner rip my ears off of my head than listen to something with a high-pitched instrument, such as a violin or flute, etc. So I could be wrong here. I don't know much (anything really) about this kind of music outside of a few little things. Other people seem to think they are real music enough to perform them professionally.

As far as "is something completed as an assignment 'real' music"? I think it probably depends, but like I said, I don't really know how music works.[/quote] (The last bolding is mine)
In terms of the etude bit and the music composed specifically for competitions and you're idea that they aren't real music - you are actually very wrong. Something being or not being performed publically does not make it real music. Nor does someone's general annoyance or lack thereof with a piece (lots of people don't like playing etudes in general, but not because they aren't music). By that standard a number of pieces that are popular now wouldn't have been real music when the composer was alive. Additionally if you think that flutes and violins are the only thing that you'd ever hear when listening to classical (which you implied) then you're also very misinformed (I say less than 24 hours after standing nearly directly behind 7 or 8 double basses, only one tuba, 4 trombones, and around 10 trumpets and 10 french horns - thanks Mahler ;) ).
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Re: What is real language?

Postby aokoye » Sat May 20, 2017 1:46 pm

LeCon wrote:
Speakeasy wrote:I find myself in disagreement with those who maintain that text or speech composed for educational purposes is not “real” or “authentic” and therefore somehow "fake" language.

Of course it's 'real' but maybe 'real' is the wrong word. However i feel that we could just be being pedantic about that.

In my view, learning dialogues from a course for instance, you get a lot of speech as it's very unlikely to be said by a native speaker in a conversation. Why courses teach people this and have continued to teach people this for the last 50 years i don't know.
I thinks aying the language is simple (in terms of sentence structure), easy to understand, or perhaps basic in the context of second language learning would make sense. These things, to me, are all very different than real vs fake.
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Re: What is real language?

Postby aokoye » Sat May 20, 2017 1:52 pm

s_allard wrote:This is a perfect example of why I do not like to use analogies in the debates here. They inevitably end up in wild-goose chases and red herrings. To say that playing from sheet music is not making music or that someone who plays from sheet music is not a musician is one of the most outlandish statements I have heard in a long time. As someone who regularly attends concerts of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra where on a given evening about 60 musicians are playing from sheet music, I can only guffaw.

I will stand by the etude analyse being a good parallel but it maybe only really works if you're a classically trained musician or already know what an etude is. I'd like to think I'm wrong there but who knows. That said, thanks for typing the rest of your post so I didn't have to. I couldn't agree more.
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Re: What is real language?

Postby Serpent » Sat May 20, 2017 2:04 pm

The distinction is certainly relevant to me, and it's one of the major reasons I've mostly stopped using textbooks. I just tend to think more in terms of, is it fun? Does it teach me something new? Does it arouse emotions? I immensely prefer predictable books to predictable textbooks.

BTW, we have a wikia article with links to resources that fit these criteria (and are often based on native materials). I love how Deutsch? Warum nicht! uses a supernatural character for comic relief, for example.
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Re: What is real language?

Postby SophiaMerlin_II » Sat May 20, 2017 2:27 pm

aokoye wrote:Additionally if you think that flutes and violins are the only thing that you'd ever hear when listening to classical (which you implied) then you're also very misinformed (I say less than 24 hours after standing nearly directly behind 7 or 8 double basses, only one tuba, 4 trombones, and around 10 trumpets and 10 french horns - thanks Mahler ;) ).


Haha, no, I'm saying that high pitched things like flutes and violins make me want to find the nearest screwdriver and rupture my own eardrums. I'm quite fond of double bases, cellos, and violas, especially played staccato.
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Re: What is real language?

Postby reineke » Sat May 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Cainntear wrote:
s_allard wrote:I'm a stickler for proper terminology because it avoids a lot of misunderstanding.

Unfortunately, us teaching professionals are in the minority here, and most people don't know the current jargon (and jargon it is), as demonstrated by this whole thread.


The pros sell "real French, " real this and real that all the time.
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