Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun May 14, 2017 1:27 am

smallwhite wrote:Would leosmith's Bow wave post be relevant here?


Is this something you employ in your routine smallwhite? I have noticed that you go on missions with various languages for a short-ish period of time (perhaps a few months?). Do you find it more efficient to study this way, or do you get bored and just want to learn a new language?

I'm actually thinking after my exam later this week, it's the perfect time to take a break from French, i've been studying it as the only language for a few years (ok, a short dip into Dutch in there) and think as one recent-ish poster in my blog had said, i'm probably a little stale. I think my efficiency has seriously dropped at times due to the long and winding French road, and Dutch for a little while will see me hit it hard, knowing time is limited. Then returning to French later with renewed enthusiasm. I'm thinking somewhere between 1 and 3 months. What are your experiences or what are your thoughts on this kind of approach smallwhite, or if anyone else wants to add some comments.
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby schlaraffenland » Sun May 14, 2017 3:26 am

coldrainwater wrote:On the flip side, when looking to conservatively approach memory and learning, one book I like is Brain Rules (Updated and Expanded): 12 Principles for Surviving and Thriving at Work, Home, and School by John Medina. In it, he takes the powerful approach of drawing from well established and conservative (I would say) principles with very strong study support.


Loved that book (and Twyla Tharp's!). Medina's book was one of those pivotal discoveries that changed the way I approached learning from that moment on. I only wish it had been around when I was 14 or so.
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby smallwhite » Sun May 14, 2017 6:53 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:Is this something you employ in your routine smallwhite? I have noticed that you go on missions with various languages for a short-ish period of time (perhaps a few months?). Do you find it more efficient to study this way, or do you get bored and just want to learn a new language?


My experience is that there really is some pretty potent magic in taking breaks. I take breaks deliberately. I switch languages every few weeks. I mentioned before that I'm constantly looking at marginal utility and diminishing returns. So, Monday I feel that listening is my worst skill so I practise listening, then Tuesday my listening has improved and when I can't understand the news it's more because of the vocabulary so I go binge on some news vocab, then Wednesday... Then, usually after a few weeks, I would still have a "worst skill" that I could improve on, because by definition there's always one skill that's the worst, but I may feel that that "worst skill" is not really that bad afterall, that it's not really worth my immediate attention or my forgoing sleep or Facebook, or alternatively, that it IS bad but I have not yet found an efficient way to improve it, that some stupid xxx has borrowed my favourite textbook, etc etc, and I would simply stop studying that language for the moment. That is, I try to work (1) at the point of maximum marginal utility AND (2) above a certain minimal marginal utility threshold. Or you can look at that as me comparing utilities not just WITHIN a language but also BETWEEN languages.

Some of the actual magic I feel after a break, apart from psychological stuff like renewed enthusiasm:

* Listening comprehension. Audio, both old and new, becomes easier to understand / becomes comprehensible with less effort / seems slower and clearer.
* Speaking fluency as in speed and smoothness. I'm very good at applying grammar rules and I hate producing incorrect grammar, so I self-monitor a lot and fluency (speed) is forgone. After a break, however, I'd be less at the top of my grammar game, so while I do still try to apply grammar rules and self-monitor, I'd simply not be able to recall enough rules, so automaticity simply has to take over. Now, just like you, I do a lot of intensive work, drilling and reading textbook stuff aloud, so I do actually have the automaticity ready to be drawn on. The same way we become more fluent after a beer or two.

Which brings me to - taking breaks works great for me, and since your study methods resemble mine, I believe taking breaks would work great for you, too. Using leosmith's terminology, studying the way we do accumulates a lot of bow wave and therefore has great potential for breaks to work their magic. (I don't really think in terms of bow wave, though. I just study like I would in university - I learn all the theory in 3 years (textbooks, vocabulary), then I apply the knowledge over the 40 years of my working life (reading, speaking, using)).
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun May 14, 2017 7:45 am

smallwhite wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Is this something you employ in your routine smallwhite? I have noticed that you go on missions with various languages for a short-ish period of time (perhaps a few months?). Do you find it more efficient to study this way, or do you get bored and just want to learn a new language?


My experience is that there really is some pretty potent magic in taking breaks. I take breaks deliberately. I switch languages every few weeks. I mentioned before that I'm constantly looking at marginal utility and diminishing returns. So, Monday I feel that listening is my worst skill so I practise listening, then Tuesday my listening has improved and when I can't understand the news it's more because of the vocabulary so I go binge on some news vocab, then Wednesday... Then, usually after a few weeks, I would still have a "worst skill" that I could improve on, because by definition there's always one skill that's the worst, but I may feel that that "worst skill" is not really that bad afterall, that it's not really worth my immediate attention or my forgoing sleep or Facebook, or alternatively, that it IS bad but I have not yet found an efficient way to improve it, that some stupid xxx has borrowed my favourite textbook, etc etc, and I would simply stop studying that language for the moment. That is, I try to work (1) at the point of maximum marginal utility AND (2) above a certain minimal marginal utility threshold. Or you can look at that as me comparing utilities not just WITHIN a language but also BETWEEN languages.

Some of the actual magic I feel after a break, apart from psychological stuff like renewed enthusiasm:

* Listening comprehension. Audio, both old and new, becomes easier to understand / becomes comprehensible with less effort / seems slower and clearer.
* Speaking fluency as in speed and smoothness. I'm very good at applying grammar rules and I hate producing incorrect grammar, so I self-monitor a lot and fluency (speed) is forgone. After a break, however, I'd be less at the top of my grammar game, so while I do still try to apply grammar rules and self-monitor, I'd simply not be able to recall enough rules, so automaticity simply has to take over. Now, just like you, I do a lot of intensive work, drilling and reading textbook stuff aloud, so I do actually have the automaticity ready to be drawn on. The same way we become more fluent after a beer or two.

Which brings me to - taking breaks works great for me, and since your study methods resemble mine, I believe taking breaks would work great for you, too. Using leosmith's terminology, studying the way we do accumulates a lot of bow wave and therefore has great potential for breaks to work their magic. (I don't really think in terms of bow wave, though. I just study like I would in university - I learn all the theory in 3 years (textbooks, vocabulary), then I apply the knowledge over the 40 years of my working life (reading, speaking, using)).


Awesome post smallwhite, thank you kindly for your explanations and encouragement given similar study methods.

My current idea is a break from French for 2 months during which I'll rekindle Dutch, then after that rotate 1 month French, 1 month Dutch and so on. What I'm undecided on is if I watch TV or listen to sth on commutes during my Dutch period, should that also be in (in your opinion) Dutch or as these are extra moments and my French comprehension is pretty solid, might I just continue with 'bonus French' in those moments so I'm still in touch with French at least, while not actively/formally studying it.
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby smallwhite » Sun May 14, 2017 8:15 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:My current idea is a break from French for 2 months during which I'll rekindle Dutch, then after that rotate 1 month French, 1 month Dutch and so on. What I'm undecided on is if I watch TV or listen to sth on commutes during my Dutch period, should that also be in (in your opinion) Dutch or as these are extra moments and my French comprehension is pretty solid, might I just continue with 'bonus French' in those moments so I'm still in touch with French at least, while not actively/formally studying it.


When I'm actively practising Dutch speaking, I mostly only listen to Dutch during my commute, often also shadowing. If it's just Dutch grammar or vocab that I'm actively learning, I listen to anything in any language that most needs listening to. I don't think it matters very much, though.
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby zenmonkey » Sun May 14, 2017 8:27 am

coldrainwater wrote:I like where this is going generally. Here or elsewhere, do you (or others including but not limited to Reineke) mind elaborating on how you go about conducting your research generally and building up a base of knowledge around a given discipline? Having a good base of resources is clearly beneficial and if you have such a base and are willing to share (or have shared and can link), I'd be very interested. Since we are definitely on a language forum, and to make it specific, do you mind sharing your methods, tips, and background for going about this sort of knowledge (here language) acquisition in your preferred manner? I personally consider it relevant to the main thread title (Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results).

You are definitely right about there being a lot of potentially wasted time using some of the sources I have read and have linked to in the posts above. The examples are indeed very silly and we can cut to the chase in an easier manner. One obvious way for me to approach my own question would be in tackling the whole gamut of resources on how to conduct research. That might work, but to keep things efficient in that regard, I should probably get a general overview from those who have been there and done that. I'd rather develop that skill presently than realize it ten years down the road. In this case, I'd also like to apply it directly to language learning.


I personally have a background in biomedical engineering and medical research - the majority of my deep dives into biology and science related fields tend to be through reading research articles, research reviews and the occasional textbook when I find that my base knowledge is missing. I used to read science journals professionally, so I tend to spend some time on Pubmed for questions around nutrition, physiology, etc...

My expertise is NOT memory or neurophysiology and my interest in the area peaked a few years ago - because I came to the conclusion that the body of knowledge tends to be insufficient to provide significant prescriptive educational guidance. We are really just learning about the layers and layers of descriptive function (functional areas, sensory biology, biochemistry, etc...). Reading Sacks, Medina, Ramachandran, Robinson and others has not particularly educated me - they are however enjoyable reads. In fact, I love those books! But I'm lucid enough to understand that a lot of this popularisation of brain function is 'carny' writing - look at the freaks we are and the oddities of (dis)function!

The split between the knowledge of function between mind and brain is so large today that my old university even has an entire department dedicated to it.

So applying principles of neurophysiological function to learning remains pretty basic - in fact, I'm going to say that sticking to a subset of Medina's list makes sense: sleep and pauses allow for consolidation, we learn for life, repetition is necessary (doesn't mean it has to SRS), exercise is good for learning, emotional attachment and multisensorial input render learning more effective (see Prof Arguilles shadowing videos where he walk and rocks about while learning, see also 'davening' or 'shokeling'), etc...

There are literally hundreds of scholarly books on Second Language Acquisition - I'm reading a few, but I have to question myself, is it well spent time? Should I not just be studying instead, because the time I spend reading about learning competes with the time I have for actual learning.

Best of luck on your Chautauqua - this inquiry of learning more for less time.

By the way, if you want to test your theory of minimising time spent - I'm sure you can design an experiment, much like weight lifting ;)
Take 200 words - learn them, place them on cards, then randomly assign them to groups. One group you review with high frequency, one you review with lower frequency, etc... and finally a last group you only test at the end of your evaluation period. See what amount of time is optimal for you.
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby leosmith » Sun May 14, 2017 5:28 pm

coldrainwater wrote:I'd rather develop that skill presently than realize it ten years down the road. In this case, I'd also like to apply it directly to language learning.

Good to see someone who is really here to learn!
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby schlaraffenland » Tue May 16, 2017 2:01 am

smallwhite wrote:Would leosmith's Bow wave post be relevant here?


This is fantastic. I plan to rage-quit Japanese grammar in about six weeks, and I certainly hope I reap the benefits of a bow wave after some time. :lol:
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby DangerDave2010 » Tue May 16, 2017 10:13 am

Having limited time to study has forced me to constantly optimize my workflow and focus only on a single activity which I feel is currently giving me the highest yield. This led to a continuous workflow improvement, which caused a great increase in efficiency that would not have happened were it not for the constraints of working on a tight schedule.

When I was young I had the whole day to study, I would spend a huge amount of time on inefficient activities. Compared to what I do now, it has been a huge waste of time.

Whereas this optimization has been crucial, limiting my studying hours is not beneficial per se. If I could do my optimized workflow the whole day, it would accelerate my learning by a huge amount.

Taking breaks is only necessary to fend off sleepiness.

On bow waves: Pauses just make a delayed consolidation effect visible, you'd still get the same effect (and generated even more waves to shore), if you had worked continuously.
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Re: Intentionally Minimizing Time Spent for Better Results

Postby Adrianslont » Tue May 16, 2017 11:20 am

zenmonkey wrote:My expertise is NOT memory or neurophysiology and my interest in the area peaked a few years ago - because I came to the conclusion that the body of knowledge tends to be insufficient to provide significant prescriptive educational guidance. We are really just learning about the layers and layers of descriptive function (functional areas, sensory biology, biochemistry, etc...). Reading Sacks, Medina, Ramachandran, Robinson and others has not particularly educated me - they are however enjoyable reads. In fact, I love those books! But I'm lucid enough to understand that a lot of this popularisation of brain function is 'carny' writing - look at the freaks we are and the oddities of (dis)function!

The split between the knowledge of function between mind and brain is so large today that my old university even has an entire department dedicated to it.

So applying principles of neurophysiological function to learning remains pretty basic - in fact, I'm going to say that sticking to a subset of Medina's list makes sense: sleep and pauses allow for consolidation, we learn for life, repetition is necessary (doesn't mean it has to SRS), exercise is good for learning, emotional attachment and multisensorial input render learning more effective (see Prof Arguilles shadowing videos where he walk and rocks about while learning, see also 'davening' or 'shokeling'), etc...


I have already hit the heart button, but I want to add that your reply is my favourite post in months. It is SO "early days" in making connections between brain and mind. I think of most things I read in this area as "the new phrenology" - not my term. I loved your term "carny writing" - it only gets about 25 hits when you google it inside quotes - and not with the meaning you have, I think. You have just invented a new term. That's hard to do!

I think that subset of Medina's list you provide is also the best answer for another recent thread, "Do you have any particular method to improve your learning capacity."
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