Are most tutors useless for advanced learners?

[aaleks]

Watching more television and reading more books is not going to do a lot of good.
<...>
How does one go about gaining good command "...of idiomatic expressions and colloquialisms with awareness of connotative levels of meaning."?

By watching TV and reading books. For example, in your more recent posts you used such idioms as ‘push the envelope’ and ‘… a chip on their shoulder’. I know both of them from the series I’ve watched.

[s_allard]

Watching more television and reading more books is not going to do a lot of good.
<...>
How does one go about gaining good command "...of idiomatic expressions and colloquialisms with awareness of connotative levels of meaning."?

By watching TV and reading books. For example, in your more recent posts you used such idioms as ‘push the envelope’ and ‘… a chip on their shoulder’. I know both of them from the series I’ve watched.

Nice try here but we are talking about Oral interaction proficiency. That means the ability to use the language. So the real issue here is how regularly have you used or do you use these idioms and not what you recognize from watching TV. I know it's another debate but I don't think you can get to C2 by watching TV alone although it is certainly very helpful.

[the1whoknocks]

I have a question to those of you who use tutors for writing and things where they have to do a lot of preparation outside of the actual tutoring session. Do you pay them extra for that? The Italki tutors I've looked at don't really mention writing, but I think it could be useful to have a tutor sometimes for writing as well. Especially at the advanced level, but it seems rather unfair to expect a lot of extra preparation time outside of the paid hour.

This is a tough one because regardless of what I do, I never feel like good teachers/ tutors get paid enough. The best I’ve found seem to have a certain love and passion for what they do. That’s been hard to put a dollar amount on. I’d have to admit that writing during my sessions is usually an afterthought; either an assignment given to me to reinforce a concept, or something I did because I needed it for work. I plan to change that very soon.

To your question, I worked regularly with three tutors. With one in particular, I’d always take ‘informal’ lessons where we’d mostly focus on speaking, role-playing and reviewing articles and summaries I’d written. With them, whatever we covered during the hour is what got covered, and we’d pick up where we left off next time. I come prepared with everything so whatever we did so there was no preparation needed on their part. However, they were still active during the session.

With the other two, I always opt for ‘professional’ lessons because the nature of my time with them is a bit different. They are the ones more likely to actively guide the session. They’d also review my writing before the next session (even if it’s not corrected), take the time to occasionally send me an interesting article or link to a video after ‘class’, and insist that any written correspondence between us be in Spanish ... and take the time to correct me on that! I really didn’t realize how good I had it at first. Anyways, with them, I always book ‘professional’ sessions – those cost more, but they deserve it. Two of the three also charge about double the amount they did when I started with them, so I think they agree.

Frankly, they were doing these things before I booked a ‘professional’ lesson with them. I think they just love going the extra mile – which makes me appreciate them even more.

Thanks for a great post the1whoknocks!

Over the span of 2.5 years I’ve worked with 22 from Italki and about 6 more from another website. Of those 28 tutors, there are only 4 that I can recommend without hesitation.

Would you mind giving the links to these tutors' profiles? I'm trying out different tutors on italki these days, to find someone I go along with well, and who fits the bill regarding many of the qualities you listed in your post.

Not at all! I've forwarded you a PM. Let me know if you have anymore questions.

[Serpent]

Watching more television and reading more books is not going to do a lot of good.
<...>
How does one go about gaining good command "...of idiomatic expressions and colloquialisms with awareness of connotative levels of meaning."?

By watching TV and reading books. For example, in your more recent posts you used such idioms as ‘push the envelope’ and ‘… a chip on their shoulder’. I know both of them from the series I’ve watched.

Nice try here but we are talking about Oral interaction proficiency. That means the ability to use the language. So the real issue here is how regularly have you used or do you use these idioms and not what you recognize from watching TV. I know it's another debate but I don't think you can get to C2 by watching TV alone although it is certainly very helpful.

Another issue is how many idioms you actually need to use And recognition can be the first step to activation.

[aaleks]

By watching TV and reading books. For example, in your more recent posts you used such idioms as ‘push the envelope’ and ‘… a chip on their shoulder’. I know both of them from the series I’ve watched.

Nice try here but we are talking about Oral interaction proficiency. That means the ability to use the language. So the real issue here is how regularly have you used or do you use these idioms and not what you recognize from watching TV. I know it's another debate but I don't think you can get to C2 by watching TV alone although it is certainly very helpful.

I think it's obvious that my productive skills are not C2, or even C1 . On my current level I don’t feel comfortable using some of idioms, like I try to impersonate someone else. It’s more psychological rather than language thing. In this case watching TV could help me to become not only acquainted but accustomed to those idioms. Also I can see how and in what circumstances a certain idiom is usually used.

[blaurebell]

Another issue is how many idioms you actually need to use And recognition can be the first step to activation.

Or whether it's really wise to use them at all depending on context! In Spanish for example if I were to use Iberian Spanish idioms on Latin Americans I'd get very strange looks, if not even bursts of laughter! I've learned to be very careful about idioms since they are region specific and might not even be understood in another region of the same country. In West Germany I can only use East German idioms ironically.

[Cavesa]

Aside from the privilege discussion (and likely he was aware of what the privilege of paying for classes every day is) it would seem that his method is a good argument for advancing to C1 levels with a teacher/tutor.

Motivation is not priviledge, it is a personal quality.
And his method is an example of working with an exceptionally good tutor. I dn't belive vast majority of them would be capable of guiding him and this thread's topc includes the word "most".

My own experience is very different. In my opinion and experience, the fundamental reason for working with a tutor is the opportunity to use the language for real with a native speaker whose job is to correct me and help me improve.

I don't know why you see a language tutor only as a native speaker of the teaching language. Maybe in Canada it is so. But the average English teacher in Russia is a native Russian speaker who might have the same problems with pronunciation, Runglish and so on.
I think, no one will be arguing that a help from a professional tutor who happens to be a native speaker of target language is a great thing but this kind of help sometimes just is not available.

This is extremely important and again deals with the word "MOST".

Most tutors in the vast majority of the world are either non-natives, or natives of dubious quality as tutors, as they really just started teaching as a way to avoid their failed lives, therefore people many of whom have already proved their incompetence and are carrying it to a new field, where they can hide it better. The quality of MOST tutors is simply miserable.

I'd love to have the ideal tutor that s_allard describes, and I reckon almost any advanced learner would, but the main point of disagreement just seems to be that in practice the vast majority of available tutors are nowhere near that ideal, not even professional and expensive ones.

I've had a few decent tutors, and they weren't even expensive, but they were just part-time community tutors who then stopped teaching. More recently I tried a "professional" teacher, who was quite good but I felt that the lessons could be "too advanced" (focusing on language that isn't that important in everyday usage rather than making sure the basics are solid) and some important things like pronunciation were never addressed. They were helpful, certainly not a waste of time although perhaps the money could have been better spent, but especially after finding a good language exchange partner who corrects me often I've felt the need for them less and less.

Yes, it is interesting to see the same situation in another country. Of course an ideal tutor would be awesome to have, but they are simply too rare. I find Garyb's second point extremely important and it resonates with one of mine. They don't know what to teach an advanced student, more important the one advanced student who was paying them. That is the problem. Most of them are absolutely incompetent in this area.

YES, YES, AND MORE YES.

What s_allard keeps missing is that for most of us trying to find these tutors is like trying to find Bigfoot.
In my case, good luck trying to find this unicorn of a tutor who can do Polish or Slovak,

Another thing is that it's tiring (and rather anti-social) for most of us to nitpick constantly and be on guard for any trace of unidiomatic output, while the other just has to take it and adjust accordingly to that feedback. In small doses (and very brief bursts), this could sometimes work, but I'm unconvinced of its viability as a long-term and dominant strategy for the majority of advanced learners (including serious ones like us who know that there's more to learning a language than completing Duolingo, Pimsleur or even Assimil). The trouble is that the corrector/tutor is focused less on the content of the output and more on its form, which when one thinks of it, runs counter to how one takes in output and evaluates its communicative value or the producer's intentions.

For better or worse, s_allard's magic tutor and tarvos' extreme devotion as a learner are not representative of what goes on in the big wide world, notwithstanding the value of this kind of tutor or rewards of intelligently done hard work. Most tutors are indeed unsuitable and useless for advanced learners, thus the title of this thread can be answered resoundingly in the affirmative.

A great post, as usual. S_allard certainly points out well the ways an exceptional tutor can be a benefit. But the whole globe is not covered with Canada. The further we stride away from the situation of a bilingual country, where people either learn one of the main languages or sometimes rarely the FIGS, the harder it is to get such a tutor.

About the nitpicking. Whether of not it is a vialable strategy depends on the student, I'd say. But I think most tutors are really far from being able to do this. Firstly, as was said, they are more used to the beginner and intermediate learners, where the content is the priority, as the person is struggling to just get the message across. The switch to the preference of the form is not that easy for most tutors.

[Cavesa]

I wonder why there is so much fuss about not finding the ideal tutor. It's not that complicated. I haven't tried hundreds but I see lots of people available. Are they all good? Probably not but you won't find unless you try. But the real issue is that you the client have to do the work. You have to make the tutor work for you. You have to train the tutor. It's not that complicated. Here's the example of my last 60-minute session with one of my Spanish tutors:
....
What's so complicated about all this? One doesn't need a degree in tutoring to be a good tutor. There are lots of people out there who can do this.

When it comes to language learning, we all invest time, money, and energy into this. I totally agree that a great tutor can help us save time and energy in exchange for money. But if I need to train him or her so much, then I am investing all three and at bigger quantities then just learning on my own.

And don't forget this is a tricky situation on a personal level, which is important during regular one on one meetings. You are coming to be taught. The tutor expects you to just take their wisdom, as that is what you are paying for. But if they need to be trained too much, they start vieweing the student as someone asking for nonsense, as someone not knowing their place. By then, the student has already paid for several lessons and either has to finish some more (as it is common for the economic advantages to prepare ten or more lessons at once), or to start from zero elsewhere.

Over the span of 2.5 years I’ve workedwith 22 from Italki and about 6 more from another website. Of those 28 tutors, there are only 4 that I can recommend without hesitation. I understand the question is about tutors at the advanced level, and how easy it might be to find a helpful one. I actually think it is hard to find a good tutor, period. It would take a while to list everything I like about my tutors, but here are a few reasons I consider value being able to work with them:

-1. They provide me with skilled and consistent feedback –
Consistent is the key word here.
-2. They let me struggle for a while – They are OK with silence and don’t always rush to correct me. Especially if they think it’s something I should be able to say.
-3. They are encouraging but always honest about what I need to work on. – I’m a decent student, if I may humbly say so, and I’m ok with tutors pointing this out occasionally. However, as I progress and we get to know each other, I need someone who is going to shoot straight with me and be honest about where my faults are.
-4. We don’t do things during our sessions that I can do on my own.
-5. They’re engaging and challenging –
-6. They’re intuitive – this one is subjective and hard to explain. I like that I can go to them and say, “I’m having a problem communicating about X, and I need your help.” Like magic, they know just the right questions to ask during the role-play or which article we need to discuss. It’s almost like an art form that I’m tempted to believe can’t be taught.
-7. Sessions are guided by my weaknesses and needs – There are times when we have spent weeks working on one problem. Not necessarily until I had it perfected, but at least until I could handle that aspect well enough given my level.
-8. They have a very keen understanding of grammar - They’re able to communicate this knowledge succinctly (when possibly) and effectively. Almost like, ‘I knew you were going to have this problem today and I prepared this explanation for you.’ I know it would be ridiculous to expect that they really do that, but that’s the ease with which they ‘explain’ grammar to me. Sometimes they struggle, or more likely I do, but these times are a minority.
-9. There is always a plan, but not necessarily a course -
-10. I truly look forward to our sessions - A

...The sticking point, for me, is that these people are harder to find that I would have thought had it not been for my experience. The more advanced I am, the more I believe the points above start to matter. I know my case may be anomaly, but the fact is that most of the 28 tutors I worked with would have been “absolutely useless, when it comes to advanced learners and the exams." unless all I wanted to do was talk. I met many who would be great for conversation practice, but this alone wouldn’t qualify someone as an effective tutor at the advanced levels, in my opinion.

I would only add that absent finding these rare people, I'd feel better off just saving my time and money since I can do a lot on my own.

I hope you won't find my shortening of your post too much, sorry about that, but it is awesome.
S_allard is always asking for numbers, which we struggle to give. Here is a clear example. Only 4 out of 28 tutors the1whoknows found were useful to her (him? sorry) as an advanced learner.

And the points resonate really well with the expectations most people on this thread seem to adress and look for.
1-consistent feedback is a very common problem
4-an extremely common problem, just like 5
6-I would say this is mostly question of experience. As I said, it is nice to be the thirtieth student of such a tutor. But their third?
8-yes. Understanding and ability to teach it. Unfortunately, vast majority of teachers and tutors I have ever experienced was lacking here. When I make a mistake, I need to understand why, I need answers to my questions. I don't need to waste fifteen minutes on reviewing all the basic rules I know perfectly, if the example at hand is obviously something more complex or otherwise not obvious.

Considering all that, I would want to put all the chances on my side. People buy all kinds of books to prepare for these exams in English or take prep classes because so much is riding on these test results. In the case of Spanish C-levels there isn't the same level of interest, but it certainly makes sense to prepare well. As a matter of fact, there are a number of certified examiners available for tutoring on line.

THis is a great example and us, who are not native English speakers, know about this huge preparatory business. I know people who have paid for the classes. All of them gave me the same advice, all of them! "Buy the book, the classes were a waste of time." The people in general felt their needs were not being addressed at all, that the amount and quality of correction were a disppointment, and that there was too much focus on things they could have been doing on their own.

[Cavesa]

I almost missed the post from the1whoknocks. Those were excellent points.

I have a question to those of you who use tutors for writing and things where they have to do a lot of preparation outside of the actual tutoring session. Do you pay them extra for that? The Italki tutors I've looked at don't really mention writing, but I think it could be useful to have a tutor sometimes for writing as well. Especially at the advanced level, but it seems rather unfair to expect a lot of extra preparation time outside of the paid hour.

I tried to ask the same questions at Italki, both to individual tutors, who only suggested all this would be done within standard scheduled lessons, which takes away all the flexibility. Italki helpdest told me, they were considering ways to make this more practical in future. Noone I contacted through other channeles seemed willing to do it. True, that makes a dozen tutors total, perhaps a bit less, but I am tired of investing time into looking for service I would be paying well for.

[
It's not our job as a student to improve our tutors. They are, or should be, professional enough to want to improve. But yes, I love it when students take matters into their own hands, usually I comply with these people best.

Exactly. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any tutor to do the whole work for me. But this is what I've been struggling against my whole life in the whole educational system. Incompetent teachers, system not giving space even to competent teachers and students, and self-study as the only working solution. Punishment for being too good was a part of the equation too and much more unpleasant than consequences of not being that good. The constant attempts to fit me in a tight box.

Even now, when the dean of my faculty is telling media something like "yes, we know we are bad at teaching people practical skills, they should find a way to learn in their free time, we aren't gonna change it, they should beg someone to let themspend their afternoons in hospital", but how are we supposed to do it, if we are forced to waste a half of every day sitting in a room where a powerpoint is being read, that is 95% of the education. During the rest of the day, we need to study (as majority of the lectures is useless too), some of us work, and sometimes we might like a bit of life too. So, you could say I am very knowledgeable about self-study, about having to do with bad teacher, about getting the most from such a crap.

In my free time, I study langauges. And I am not that bad at it, thanks to lots and lots of self study. If I pay someone to tutor me, I am paying them to save my energy, to give me something I am having a harder time doing myself. I don't wanna pay to form someone as a tutor, I have enough work of my own. I don't want to pay someone to struggle against them too. It feels like I am being punished for becoming an advanced student, for wanting more than just to memorise a few touristy phrases. I don't need that.

The number one need of the advanced learner is actual productive practice with corrective feedback and stylistic recommendations. Watching more television and reading more books is not going to do a lot of good.[/b] This is where I believe a tutor can play a big role. But the student must take charge and determine what works for them according to their specific needs. At this level of proficiency we are talking about stylistic details and nuances.

The big question is getting the right tutor. I totally understand that there has to be the right chemistry between the customer and the tutor but this doesn't mean that most internet tutors are incompetent to work at this level. If I look at the Verbling roster of Spanish teachers, the vast majority are university graduates in language teaching and native speakers. They are certainly familiar with all the varieties and registers of Spanish.

If the target language is English, the catalog of potential tutors is vast and probably quite specialized. If you want a perfect accent in English, there must be dozens of schools and tutors who do just that. And the opposite is certainly true. For the majority of the world's languages, the resources are very limited indeed.

Excuse me, but I think I have already proved the bolded part wrong and so have many other people on this forum.

The catalog is rich, the people have their language degrees, but that doesn't change the fact most of them are bad at teaching advanced students, many being bad at teaching anyone at all.
Learners like Tarvos and Chung have criticised rigidity of many tutors, and it is rampant among graduates. Yes, a language degree can be an advantage, but while learners of Slovak are trying to find anyone at all, a learner of French is trying to get through the mass of bad rigid teachers.
The rigid teacher may still suit the beginner. As I said, they are teaching the same stuff over and over again, no need for much invention. But an advanced student is different.Many believe their degree automatically means they know what is good for the student better than the student himself, which is a big problem, if you need to form your tutor.

The rigidity is a problem. Yes, the degree should give those people a great base of knowledge about the knowledge and its registers. But it often gives them a lot of prejudice towards some of the registers, some of the resources, some methods. We all know the classical example of tutors being unable to recommend any book that isn't classics. The same often applies in other areas too. During the years I spent learning French, I constantly had a problem with teachers' rigid ideas of what should be difficult for learners. A tutor of an advanced learner needs to fully take into account the weaknesses and strengths of the individual advanced learner. Instead, may simply assume they have to spend time on this or that issue, because their humanities faculty taught them it was necessary.

When I am looking for a tutor, experience and recommendations count much more than just having a degree.

[Cavesa]

There are many people providing this service, but they are not teaching language learners. They are copy editors working for book publishers or authors. It is still a challenge to find a good one. I recommend looking for a university professor who is a published author and who is looking for some income on the side. There are many such folks, if you can afford them.

Thanks for the idea! I'll try.

By watching TV and reading books. For example, in your more recent posts you used such idioms as ‘push the envelope’ and ‘… a chip on their shoulder’. I know both of them from the series I’ve watched.

Nice try here but we are talking about Oral interaction proficiency. That means the ability to use the language. So the real issue here is how regularly have you used or do you use these idioms and not what you recognize from watching TV. I know it's another debate but I don't think you can get to C2 by watching TV alone although it is certainly very helpful.

I think it's obvious that my productive skills are not C2, or even C1 . On my current level I don’t feel comfortable using some of idioms, like I try to impersonate someone else. It’s more psychological rather than language thing. In this case watching TV could help me to become not only acquainted but accustomed to those idioms. Also I can see how and in what circumstances a certain idiom is usually used.

I'd say my DALF C2 is a nice proof of oral C2 too

I think this is an exact example of the rigidity. S_allard teaches langauges at university, if I remember correctly. And just like vast majority of teachers and tutors I've met, he doesn't belief this, even when faced with proofs. Why? Because obviously, this was not included in their textbooks. This is a perfect illustration of one of the very common problems.
................

Sorry about having written too much, sorry. Finished now.
Result of this thread: Instead of both posting on a forum too much AND looking for a suitable Spanish tutor, I need to study on my own more. Now that the oncology exam is behind me, it should be easier again