The use of FSI, a question of efficiency.

[jsega]

Anecdotal evidence is not a definite proof that drills are the answer to every language learning problem but it's an indication that they might be useful.

Wow, going to need verification that Reineke's account hasn't been hacked after this one

[William Camden]

The wrong and right way to learn a foreign language

June 16, 2012
"This was written by linguist Stephen Krashen, professor emeritus at the University of Southern California, is an educational researcher and activist. He has written hundreds of articles and books in the fields of second language acquisition, bilingual education, and reading.

In a recent issue of the Washington Post Express, Andrew Eil, a staffer who works at the U.S. State Department on international climate change, recommends that foreign language students start with “boot camp:” Study grammar very hard, drill vocabulary every day, and force yourself to talk. This regimen, he claims, put him in a position to develop high levels of competence in several languages; he now speaks Russian and French fluently and can converse in Mandarin and Kazakh.

Most of us who have taken foreign languages classes that emphasize heavy grammar instruction and memorizing vocabulary would disagree with his recommendations, and so does the research.

The results of studies done over the last few decades by a wide variety of researchers and published in scientific journals support this view: We do not master languages by hard study and memorization, or by producing it. Rather, we acquire language when we understand what people tell us and what we read, when we get “comprehensible input.” As we get comprehensible input through listening and reading, we acquire (or “absorb”) the grammar and vocabulary of the second language.

Studies show repeatedly that intensive grammar study and memorizing vocabulary are of limited value: Students in classes that provide lots of comprehensible input (e.g. methods such as TPRS) consistently do better than students in traditional grammar-based classes on tests that involve real communication and do just as well, and often better, on grammar tests. .."



.

If you can get the real-life situations that boost your language-learning, well and good. Lee Miller, a famous American woman photographer during WW2, was impressed by the linguistic abilities of people in Luxembourg (she herself had lived in Paris and could speak French). Then again, Luxembourgers are right at the frontier between French and German. I think people learned and still learn well by grammar-translation if they want to and try hard enough. The same with just sucking up the world around them.

[blaurebell]

Then again, Luxembourgers are right at the frontier between French and German. I think people learned and still learn well by grammar-translation if they want to and try hard enough. The same with just sucking up the world around them.

The single most important part of the linguistic abilities of Luxembourgians is their education system. I don't how or when it was established like that, but they have their lessons in secondary school in German, English, French and Luxembourgish, in some schools also Portuguese. They might have biology in French and history in Luxembourgish, that sort of thing. A lot of immersion. At least that's what my Luxembourgish friends told me. I've met plenty of them in Germany and England and they are pretty much the only folks who ever fooled me with their German abilities. They speak pretty much without an accent - very minor if at all -, but sometimes they use very strange and archaic words or slip up in some other very hard to recognise way. I'd only notice after half an hour plus speaking to them that there is something slightly "off" about their German. All of them grew up watching German TV. Their English is equally impressive, but with a more noticeable accent. And every single one of the Luxembourgians I met wanted to become a teacher because it's one of the most well-paid and even prestigious jobs in the country. One of my friends at uni spoke Luxembourgish, German, English, French and Portuguese pretty much like native languages from childhood on and had school in all 5 languages ...!

The same effect is very hard to reproduce for second language acquisition because one usually doesn't have the time for at least 18years of language immersion every single day. Even if you split that immersion time evenly among 4 languages, you end up with 4.5 years of total immersion per language, 15h+ a day. If you could keep that up for even one year with a second language you end up with more than 5000h of language exposure. Most of us struggle getting to 1000h practice in a second language.

[reineke]

Then again, Luxembourgers are right at the frontier between French and German. I think people learned and still learn well by grammar-translation if they want to and try hard enough. The same with just sucking up the world around them.

The single most important partof the linguistic abilities of Luxembourgians is their education system.

Eh... I don''t think so.You're sort of forcing me to write this, since I like multilingual education.

Luxembourg

Official languages: Luxembourgish, French, German

"Foreign-born persons and guest workers make up more than a third (40%) of the population of Luxembourg. The most common languages spoken by them, other than German and French, are Portuguese, Italian, and English."

Wikip.

"In the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, Luxembourgish is the national language. French is the language of legislation. French, German and Luxembourgish have the status of administrative and judicial languages.

French, German and Luxembourgish are spoken everywhere to varying extents and function as languages for working, writing and communicating, both formally and informally.

The languages spoken at work, at school and/or at home was the subject of a study published by STATEC in 2013, following the 2011 population census. The study showed that 70.5% of the population use Luxembourgish at work, at school and/or at home, 55.7% use French, and 30.6% German. On average, 2.2 languages are used. At the same census, 55.8% - a large majority of the country's inhabitants - gave Luxembourgish as their 'principal language'. Portuguese and French followed in second and third positions (15.7% and 12.1% respectively). '

...
Written press

Luxembourg's written press has always been multilingual. German has always been the language of choice for the written press, although French has made up ground in traditional dailies and certain weekly newspapers...

Although there has been an unprecedented boom in literary production and publications in Luxembourgish since 1985, a good number of works by Luxembourgish authors are published in French or German, depending on the author's affinity with one or the other language. Many children's books are published in Luxembourgish.
Bookshops and libraries

Bookshops and libraries mainly supply publications in French and German, but also in English, or even in other languages."

http://www.luxembourg.public.lu/en/le-g ... index.html

[reineke]

Anecdotal evidence is not a definite proof that drills are the answer to every language learning problem but it's an indication that they might be useful.

Wow, going to need verification that Reineke's account hasn't been hacked after this one

I have only been defending FSI. See also the thread entitled: FSI German: too old?
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3901&hilit=FSI+german

While I do think that everyone should watch cartoons my main point was that you don't need FSI. What you truly need (like the desert needs the rain) is exposure to the living language. Pronunciation drills are great. As language tools go, 60-90 hours of audio material ain't half bad. My favorite audio course was called Le français et la vie (1974). It was respectably long (approx. 90 45-minute reels) Unfortunately the original audio is not available in digital format.

Here's a sample, read by a native speaker:

[jsega]

Anecdotal evidence is not a definite proof that drills are the answer to every language learning problem but it's an indication that they might be useful.

Wow, going to need verification that Reineke's account hasn't been hacked after this one

I have only been defending FSI. See also the thread entitled: FSI German: too old?
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3901&hilit=FSI+german

I was just joking in regards to the "anectdotal evidence" part specifically, as most posts I see from you are filled with citations.

[reineke]

Anecdotal evidence is not a definite proof that drills are the answer to every language learning problem but it's an indication that they might be useful.

Wow, going to need verification that Reineke's account hasn't been hacked after this one

I have only been defending FSI. See also the thread entitled: FSI German: too old?
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3901&hilit=FSI+german

I was just joking in regards to the "anectdotal evidence" part specifically, as most posts I see from you are filled with citations.

I knew you were joking. I took advantage of your comment to add a couple of comments of my own. The citation business is a recent development that was originally triggered by the "why I never heard of such a thing!" and "it's common sense!" types of comments. I hope that the citations add value to the discussion. As I see it, in language learning many things are counterintuitive and difficult to explain.

[jsega]

Anecdotal evidence is not a definite proof that drills are the answer to every language learning problem but it's an indication that they might be useful.

Wow, going to need verification that Reineke's account hasn't been hacked after this one

I have only been defending FSI. See also the thread entitled: FSI German: too old?
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3901&hilit=FSI+german

I was just joking in regards to the "anectdotal evidence" part specifically, as most posts I see from you are filled with citations.

The citation business is a recent development that was originally triggered by the "why I never heard of such a thing!" and "it's common sense!" types of comments. I hope that the citations add value to the discussion. As I see it, in language learning many things are counterintuitive and difficult to explain.

They definitely add a lot of value to threads, largely promoting more useful back and forth.

[blaurebell]

Then again, Luxembourgers are right at the frontier between French and German. I think people learned and still learn well by grammar-translation if they want to and try hard enough. The same with just sucking up the world around them.

The single most important partof the linguistic abilities of Luxembourgians is their education system.

Eh... I don''t think so.You're sort of forcing me to write this, since I like multilingual education.

What I was trying to say is that without the multilingual education system the whole thing wouldn't work out to such high ability so that they can without issue study abroad with abilities like any native speaker. I've met quite a number of Wolga Germans who spoke Russian and German fluently for every day purposes, but since all their schooling was in German they could never have faked their way into a Russian university. Some of them couldn't even read Russian properly beyond what's written on a Pelmeni or sweets package. It's one thing to speak about food and laundry and boy-girl trouble in a language, and quite another to be able to have any sort of academic discourse in it. And as my mum always mentions when she speaks about the kids of her friends, they actually tend to have quite an accent too. You need to have the multilingual environment and the multilingual schooling, otherwise it just won't hold up.

[Cainntear]

The question:

FSI French - Has anyone actually completed the whole thing?

.. didn't have many takers. It's easier to criticize FSI than to actually complete the course. Based on the reviews so far, people who have actually completed the course were generally pleased with the results.

Anecdotal evidence is not a definite proof that drills are the answer to every language learning problem but it's an indication that they might be useful.

...in certain circumstances.

But the thing is that people who complete a course are quite likely to describe it positively, and people who have negative experiences of a course are likely to quit early -- so if you discount the views of people who don't complete a course, every course is going to come out pretty damned good in all the reviews.