Examples of Input Only

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reineke
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby reineke » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:08 pm

smallwhite wrote:
reineke wrote:
Re: The limits of comprehensible input?

I haven't been following this thread but Reineke's... just horrible.

Reineke has become the reason I will read LLorg regularly no matter how busy I am.



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Xmmm wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Xmmm, why don't you just do 200 hrs of music and audiobooks like reineke? You might not get the cognate discount but you'll get the plenty of brand new words.


Don't tempt me! :)
....


smallwhite wrote:
Xmmm wrote:
smallwhite wrote:I had said "chaos and failure" was not about your language learning (or others') but you keep thinking it was and keep giving me lessons.


You've got to stop living in the past ... :)

I'll tell you one thing. I'm very passionate about Russian and Italian -- I just love these languages. And I'm very obsessed about Turkish for some reason I don't understand yet. I want to learn them in a natural way, where I can intuit correct behavior based on massive exposure and really get a feel for them. ALG self-study is the right way to go here and I have no regrets.

But if I were going to learn an L5, I would need a more efficient approach and am open to flashcards+grammar+podcasts+transcripts, aka the smallwhite method. There's only so much time and I, alas, am not a mega-brain floating in a nutrient tank, awake 24 hours a day and able to receive input in eight languages simultaneously like reineke.

Unfortunately, as I've complained before, the smallwhite method is not properly documented. So I'd have to do "universe of memory" or whatever else I could find googling.

You're right, I can stop being bothered by the past as the present is enough for that.


smallwhite wrote:
Brun Ugle wrote:After you reach a certain age, anyone under 30 seems like a little kid.

Tell me about it :D

I just noticed because iguanamon specifically said "at your age". But I guess since reineke is still watching cartoons and shows no intention of stopping, he actually watches cartoons at everyone's age...



iguanamon wrote:Yeah, I mis-remembered about reineke. To be fair though, reineke doesn't reveal a lot about reineke. We don't even know what languages reineke speaks.


Brun Ugle wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
iguanamon wrote:
Reineke learned a lot of Italian at your age from watching cartoons.

Wasn't reineke 10-ish back then? Eido mentioned "After I graduated high school" about herself so seems a lot older.

After you reach a certain age, anyone under 30 seems like a little kid.


smallwhite wrote:
reineke wrote:I love all feathered animals.

I didn't understand this sentence above from this post. Is it about me? What does it mean and what is the animal? And how come reineke doesn't want me to understand it?

Thanks!


smallwhite wrote:
reineke wrote:
foxn.jpg
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Pics you post are more comprehensible than posts you write.


reineke wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Reineke writes better analysis and advice.


Ani wrote:This battle of concision is torture for me to watch. How can you two talk so much with so few words?

Me, I'd need to write 3-6 paragraphs each to be comfortable expressing what you've written in any of these last few posts.



reineke wrote:
Ani wrote:Also.. haiku challenge.. need I say more? Who's in?



smallwhite wrote:
reineke wrote:A B2 score in an unrelated language after 600-700 hours of total study is definitely worthy of praise.

Can you believe it? Praise from reineke! All those hours are now worth it :P

Reineke finding my results literally unbelievable ;) I have to stick with Turkish just to get more of this!



smallwhite wrote:
rdearman wrote:@smallwhite you did your calculation on 5000 words in 90 days. I was using 13000 as my number of words.


I know. You don't need to SRS all 13k words so I reduced it to 5k.

rdearman wrote:I used the math to illustrate you need 5 hours a day just for vocabulary.


(5 hours just for vocab and then fluent in 3 months is actually good by my books. It took me more hours than that, for 3 years, and all I got was an Accounting degree...)

1. How many more hours a day do you think you'll need for grammar and other things?

2. SRSing 5 hours a day is one way to do it. Reineke would watch cartoons instead and Igunamon would multi-track instead. Do you think those methods would make it in 3 months? I remember Reineke mentioning 3000 hours so that won't fit into 90 days, but what about multi-tracking?



smallwhite wrote:
rdearman wrote:I mostly watch films and read books


That's what reineke does, too. So you and him together can show us how input-heavy-learning works.



smallwhite wrote:
reineke wrote:A limitation on reading as a source of linguistic input: Evidence from deaf learners

Reineke is a search engine except you search him with full sentences.


smallwhite wrote:
reineke wrote:
Ser wrote:I just signed up for the challenge with Ancient Greek, a language I'm almost a complete beginner in. My Twitter username is ser_be_etre_shi.

Looking at the old highscores, reineke's entries of 300+ hours of study are just... wow. The challenge is only about 42 days long, so doing 300+ hours in total would mean studying at least 7 hours every day.

Since I was a teenager I like to measure activity time spanning several days with Final Fantasy games as the unit, as an old-school FF game takes about 60 hours to complete. You could actually finish five Final Fantasy games in 6 weeks in the amount of time reineke studied during those challenges...

What is the difference between Target Score and Total Score?


Spanish - I mostly watched cartoons (which is also, like, wow I know).
Portuguese - Dragon Ball>Breaking Bad>audiobooks

> ... studying at least 7 hours every day.

And were you studying (likely watching) 7 hours at 100% attention, or was 7 the disounted figure?

I know you seldom answer my questions but I can try.

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Smallwhite's great.
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby reineke » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:34 pm

zenmonkey wrote:By the way...


Thank you for answering my question truthfully and without any attempt at bluffing or drama.

I asked because your collocations triggered "naive" and "inocente" in my head. Yay for La chica invasora.
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:28 pm

Tristano wrote:I'm a lazy person so I don't use srs courses where I have to type the answer.
I further study with a long phase of input only, after which I still need to train production if I want to get good at it. With input only I could reach a a2 level at production and b2/c1 at passive skills.

Since I won't need to speak many other languages, I am mostly going to use input only, but if I also desire to speak the language then I don't see the point of not training production at all.


I use SRS where I vocalise the answers, so I'm assuming you only think the answers? I find that vocalising helps with retention, is useful for pronunciation and forces me to slow down a little.
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby Cainntear » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:05 pm

Tristano wrote:I'm a lazy person so I don't use srs courses where I have to type the answer.

I'm a lazy person, so I don't use SRS courses where I don't have to type the answer.

How does that work? Because I recognise that I simply don't focus or put enough effort into SRS prompts if I'm not forced to -- I need to create an environment where laziness is actively discouraged.
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby Ani » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:49 am

reineke wrote:
iguanamon wrote:We don't even know what languages reineke speaks.


Ani wrote:This battle of concision is torture for me to watch. How can you two talk so much with so few words?

Me, I'd need to write 3-6 paragraphs each to be comfortable expressing what you've written in any of these last few posts.



reineke wrote:
Ani wrote:Also.. haiku challenge.. need I say more? Who's in?


I'm lost as to how or why I'm in this comment thread.. but I'm just going to brag (now, and at all points in the future), that I know what languages Reineke speaks.
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby Tristano » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:06 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
Tristano wrote:I'm a lazy person so I don't use srs courses where I have to type the answer.
I further study with a long phase of input only, after which I still need to train production if I want to get good at it. With input only I could reach a a2 level at production and b2/c1 at passive skills.

Since I won't need to speak many other languages, I am mostly going to use input only, but if I also desire to speak the language then I don't see the point of not training production at all.


I use SRS where I vocalise the answers, so I'm assuming you only think the answers? I find that vocalising helps with retention, is useful for pronunciation and forces me to slow down a little.


Yes I only think the answer, mostly because I do it in situations where I can't vocalise (like in the bed when my girlfriend is sleeping, or at work in the restroom for a solid 5 minutes of hidden moments study). I agree that vocalising helps with the retention, but if I have to wait until the moment I can vocalise, then it would be never, which doesn't help with the retention :D
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby Tristano » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:14 pm

Cainntear wrote:
Tristano wrote:I'm a lazy person so I don't use srs courses where I have to type the answer.

I'm a lazy person, so I don't use SRS courses where I don't have to type the answer.

How does that work? Because I recognise that I simply don't focus or put enough effort into SRS prompts if I'm not forced to -- I need to create an environment where laziness is actively discouraged.


I believe being exposed to the prompt forces me to learn, and by not having to write I can complete the cards much faster or get exposed to more cards. It works better for me but I guess different people have different needs.
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Re: Examples of Input Only

Postby Serpent » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:23 pm

I've been reluctant to even open this thread and hoping another mod would catch it if something went wrong. Now that the 6WC is over I couldn't resist anymore :lol: And I'm typing this while watching football.
Cainntear wrote:If you teach redondo in Spanish, learners are either going to get it slightly wrong and confuse it with the cognate "rotund" or they're going to associate it with the pre-formed concept represented by the word "round".
How is the former a mistake? Do you mean assuming redondo is not the default word for rounded things? If they assume that redondo is a relatively low frequency word, I agree that it's a mistake. But no language is going to have a full equivalent to either rotund or round(ed)*. Regardless of how you initially find out about the meaning, you still need to be exposed to the idiomatic use, so both groups will start out with an imperfect assumption and their notion of the word will be slightly off until they've come across more examples (whether through input or listed explicitly in their textbook).
*Ok, not sure about Scots for example, but you know what I mean

However, another post mentioned that we don't explicitly learn the concept of "round" in L1 and while this is normally true for comprehension (barring serious neglect), kids do learn to describe shapes in kindergarten.
(I vaguely remember how part of my preparation for school was to be able to name the shape of some less obvious objects, and in the answer sheet filled in by parents, my dad wrote that strawberry is "drop-shaped" (каплевидная). Iirc, he just asked me "is it shaped like a drop?" and I said yes, which is obviously not the right way to do these tasks :lol: Mum was not amused)
I have a few problems with that. First up, I know I'm not alone in finding it very difficult to disregard subtitles. If they're there, I read them.
In Scotland, all Gaelic television (except kids programmes and live broadcasts) is shown with subtitles that you can't turn off. Gaelic speakers got so sick of their eyes being drawn to the English that quite a few of them actually went as far a sticking cardboard or electrician's tape across the bottom of the screen to block them out. I find the subtitles particularly problematic for comedy, as the punchline is often revealed in English before it's delivered in Gaelic, and the whole role of timing and performance is undermined.
Are you able to watch dubbed movies in L1 without being distracted by the mouth movements?
Globally, tons of people are comfortable with either subs or dubs, and only English native speakers have the luxury to avoid both. The way I see it, both are skills. If subtitles were that difficult to ignore, Scandinavians would seek out content in English without subs, and it doesn't seem like it's a problem for them.
I personally can't ignore subs but when I compare the amount of subbed and dubbed media I have seen, the difference is enormous.
(I have always subconsciously put down the mouth movements to "that's just how movies are", along with how people wear shoes indoors, never use the bathroom unless that's a plot point, and don't actually speak the way real people do :lol:) I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to learn to use subs the way Scandinavians do, this would be a matter of using them a lot more and learning to read them quickly when I do need them. I don't believe their brains are wired differently or something. (I can accept that a tiny percentage of people are really wired differently but 99% of the subs vs dubs debate is just cultural and unnecessarily moralized)
However, I do remember seeing a study by Mondria (summarised in his article on vocab myths) which showed that inferring meaning had no noticeable benefit over being given the meaning, and took longer
I don't think anyone is claiming that a single time seeing the word in a sentence is superior to looking it up in the dictionary. Unless the sentence was very memorable, of course, so that you really remember the whole sentence.
Usually when people discuss learning from extensive reading before B2 or so, they mean learning the words that come up several times, maybe without even looking them up. That's what Prof Argüelles also mentioned (known unknowns). And after inferring the meaning you need to come across the word a few more times (or many more times) before you confidently start using it.
The study you cite was testing the effect of inferring a word from ONE sentence, and retaining the meaning two weeks later. (And how many learners took part, 10? 50?) That's not the scale most input learners are talking about. Also, nobody is denying that if you need to learn one specific word, you can just look it up. The point is that you can learn dozens of words from a well chosen book, and different intermediate learners will not necessarily pick up the same words (but many will overlap of course).
Admittedly, it's pretty hard to test the effect of learning from input the way I described, also because we value learning from more than one source of input... but at the very least they should've used texts, and they should've practised the relevant techniques in advance with other words.
I cannot be engaged if I do not understand, and a truly engaging plot is going to be difficult to follow.
:shock: So you've never experienced the joy of understanding easy and predictable plots in L2 that you wouldn't enjoy in L1? For me this has faded after a few languages, but the joy of learning the grammar explicitly has faded even more. (Okay, part of that is how the grammar examples are also predictable, and often sexist)

(for the record - no, I didn't type *the whole post* while watching football. half-time breaks exist, and now that I'm finishing the comment, there's no match on anymore)
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