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Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:28 pm
by Cainntear
reineke wrote:

Bill VanPatten wrote:Do you ever remember being taught what round meant? And if you do, did you understand that definition? Most likely, you weren’t taught anything about roundedness. Over time, you developed a notion of roundedness from lots of exposure to round objects. In short, your knowledge of roundedness comes from the numerous samples of roundedness you were exposed to. Mental representation for language develops much in the same way.

Not if by "language" he means "second language". Even if you work in an immersive monolingual environment, learners will always attempt to pin new vocab onto existing preformed concepts. If you teach redondo in Spanish, learners are either going to get it slightly wrong and confuse it with the cognate "rotund" or they're going to associate it with the pre-formed concept represented by the word "round".

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:58 pm
by reineke
zenmonkey wrote:I<never mind, another necro-thread>.


You enjoyed participating with Jeff, s_allard, smallwhite and a couple of others in the Necro party here commenting on an an old HTLAL post:

zenmonkey wrote:
s_allard wrote:In this debate I am tempted to say: A plague on both your houses.

Agreed.


The HTLAL thread turned into a long litany of reasons why learning from native media is a bad idea and a display of everyone's favorite hobby horse.

"If you mean to learn by passive assimilation and little of no study, you are heading into a huge waste of your time."

"Ari": "I'm afraid I'm tending to agree with the majority here. As a learning method, this will be extremely inefficient, bordering on useless."

Jeff: "There were some posts about the TV method some years ago... I was not impressed by anything else than the poster's patience to stick to the method for >1000 hours without knowing the language."

Emk: "This is a very enjoyable and effective method starting around B1. But I've never heard of anybody starting from zero and succeeding."

Patrick (trying again):

Well as I mentioned there is this:

TV method, or how I learned Italian

"Whether you believe it or not is of course up to you, but for that doesn't sound totally impossible."

No one seemed to notice. It's not as if Patrick or Keith discovered something new. "This guy" (Reineke) was well known to the group. BTW, thanks, Patrick. I picked up the "method" lingo from the forum crowd. I left after I became tired of the same-old, same-old.

A couple of years later Patrick wrote on this forum:

patrickwilken wrote:
reineke wrote: It's difficult enough trying to convince people with sizable vocabularies to start consuming native content....


Actually I was inspired by reading a blog post of your Italian learning a few years ago to try something similar with German and started watching German media when I was still around A1. I started with dubbed version of South Park (it was easily available) and was quite pleased I understood a few words (I remember watching one episode and being pleased to understand the word for volcano and that was about it). After about three-four months I saw my first movie in a cinema in Berlin and was happy to understand about 40%. After that it just keep getting easier. After four years (and +1200 movies/TV Shows) I am now at +99% comprehension for TV/Movies.


In light of all this, why is Patrick being painted as a near failure?

Re: The limits of comprehensible input?
smallwhite wrote:Patrickwilken is probably the most immersed member here - lives in Gemany, [here she lists Patrick's private business] consistent multiple hours of media for multiple years. English native learning Cat II language. If Patrickwilken is still not doing that great then it seems to me relying on comprehensive input to learn anything but sister languages is unrealistic and infeasible.


Really. So, if someone were to post excitedly that they certified A1 in German after many hundreds of hours of intensive study, that's fair game? You know, because most people here are Anki'ing and coursing around. The chicken coop is wide open and if I cared to analyze there'd be feathers flying all over the place.

Here's another tease by Jeff:
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
reineke wrote:I can now enjoy advanced content in 9 languages.

Well done! Would you care to tell us about your method? (Have I missed it?)
...
From the legendary TV method topic on HTLAL, more than ten years ago: Reineke wrote:...


Gee, I don't know Jeff. You're way too slick for me. Talk about retro necro! All that just so you could provide a proof about something I never kept secret in the first place. I took extreme care to provide additional explanations should anyone care to read my notes.

Let's put this in context:

Keith wrote:26 November, 2008
I am now using the TV method to acquire the Chinese language.

I will not look up words.
I will not memorize vocabulary.
I will try not to think about the language.
I will not speak until I can do so naturally.
I will not ask questions.
I will not take notes.

I started with some online TV channels, but I found the display to be small and the quality to be a problem as well as the schedule. So I bought a TV drama on 9 DVD discs. I will buy more. I have written all about what I found on my blog in October. It is based on ALG World and the success of Reineke backs up the idea that it can be done through TV.

So this is what I am doing now. Wish me luck!
1 person has voted this message useful


That 1 person was probably not me. I did wish him luck.
reineke wrote:Hey Keith

A few observations.

- I was a kid. I was an entertainment-starved kid who discovered Japanese cartoons. Nothing else competed for my attention.

I remember remember having to run like crazy because Urusei Yatsura (Lamu, la ragazza dello Spazio for me) ended less than 10 minutes before my scheduled math lessons. The name of the channel was Odeon TV.

I went from basically monolingual Croatian > Italian, a bigger jump than
English>Spanish but nowhere near as ambitious as what you’re trying to do.

I had no rules. I looked up very few words and only when I felt like it*... I think having too many strict rules will eventually bum you out.

I took very long breaks, 8 months or so of doing things that were not related to
Italian and necessarily forgetting a good deal of what I had learned the previous summer. When I “studied” it was likely a 4-5 hour block or longer. I had fun breaks (swimming and such) and I’d be home early for another 4-5 hour study block.

Once I wrote about my own experience regarding (in)comprehensible input and I mentioned a very high number of hours it took me to get to a certain level. Later I looked up the dates when some shows first aired...

TV screen quality. I started with a 15” black-and-white TV and upgraded later to a big 20” ...black-and-white. I was the last kid in town with a color TV :)
Picture quality. Sometimes terrible, (channels would interfere with each other), sometimes great. Sound quality – mono, generally quite good.

TV vs DVD. You’re missing out on commercials and reruns.

Recently I was sort of forced to watch Chinese soaps. I figured out a few things and promptly forgot them. I’ll likely do this with Spanish and Russian (books + movies) but I’d follow a more traditional approach with a language like Japanese (while watching TV)...

So, Gambatte! Have fun!

Edited by reineke on 26 November 2008
1 person has voted this message useful


Edited.for brevity and clarity.
*I certainly did not look up anything when I was 6,7,8,9 etc.

I learned German as a teen following a similar approach and recently I made good on my promise about Spanish and Russian.

This is a small forum. Keith is apparently only interesting as a way of portraying a language acquisition failure. Victor is the comic "guy from Brazil" who went MIA and Patrick's success is being whittled down to failure. Reineke is either ghosted or forgotten unless someone needs something.

Victor has recently joined and can speak for himself.

victorhart wrote:Hi, I'm Victor Hart, a language enthusiast.....


Hi Victor. I wish you good luck.

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:31 am
by lavengro
reineke wrote: ...
Victor has recently joined and can speak for himself.

victorhart wrote:Hi, I'm Victor Hart, a language enthusiast.....


Hi Victor. I wish you good luck.


victorhart wrote: Summary: if you watch tons of video and slowly pick up words that way ....

... il mondo è tuo!!! [insert evil laugh here]

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:19 am
by zenmonkey
reineke wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:I<never mind, another necro-thread>.


You enjoyed participating with Jeff, s_allard, smallwhite and a couple of others in the Necro party here commenting on an an old HTLAL post:

zenmonkey wrote:
s_allard wrote:In this debate I am tempted to say: A plague on both your houses.

Agreed.


The HTLAL thread turned into a long litany of reasons why learning from native media is a bad idea and a display of everyone's favorite hobby horse.


Just ignore my surliness and my inconsistency. It's not about you vs them, I enjoy your posts a lot (I do prefer when you give your own interpretation of the material you quote).

(PS. I also mentioned in that thread that it was a revival of something from a year ago...)

(PPS. There is actually nothing wrong in reviving old threads per se. I'm not necessarily a fan when it's about answering a question where the OP has most obviously moved on...)

(PPPS Also the link is broken, you need to remove the final / you posted)

(PPPPS I'm in a worse mood for having gone back to that site this morning.(mostly kidding.))

And finally - if you learned mostly from going directly to native sources -- good for you (serious). My French acquisition was done with a maximum of native material in an immersive environment and very little language learning material. Sink or swim. But I'm not going to repeat that again.

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:21 pm
by reineke
Cainntear wrote:
reineke wrote:

Bill VanPatten wrote:Do you ever remember being taught what round meant? And if you do, did you understand that definition? Most likely, you weren’t taught anything about roundedness. Over time, you developed a notion of roundedness from lots of exposure to round objects. In short, your knowledge of roundedness comes from the numerous samples of roundedness you were exposed to. Mental representation for language develops much in the same way.

Not if by "language" he means "second language". Even if you work in an immersive monolingual environment, learners will always attempt to pin new vocab onto existing preformed concepts. If you teach redondo in Spanish, learners are either going to get it slightly wrong and confuse it with the cognate "rotund" or they're going to associate it with the pre-formed concept represented by the word "round".


If you present the word in isolation and ask sudents to brainstorm you will get all kinds of answers. You can of course provide some context.

An English-speaking learner of Spanish may come up with retondo, rotundo, ruhdundo when speaking. These quasi-words sound closer to redond- than round. However, "round" is not a huge leap away from "redondo".

In an immersion environment you may read or hear

número redondo - round number
agujero redondo - round hole
objeto redondo - round object
la mesa redonda - round table
Caballeros de la Mesa Redonda -
The Knights of the Round Table
and many other combinations.

Compare that to:

okrugli broj
okrugla rupa
okrugli predmet
okrugli stol

The collocations work in your favor once you start picking up some basic vocabulary. At first glance however you can easily come up with a theory that it's impossible to pick up words from spoken context. And yet...



PV.jpg
PV.jpg (216.3 KiB) Viewed 499 times

"Tavola rotonda" features prominently in both shows and intro songs.

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:36 pm
by Cainntear
reineke wrote:Edited.for brevity and clarity.
*I certainly did not look up anything when I was 6,7,8,9 etc.

I learned German as a teen following a similar approach and recently I made good on my promise about Spanish and Russian.

This is a small forum. Keith is apparently only interesting as a way of portraying a language acquisition failure. Victor is the comic "guy from Brazil" who went MIA and Patrick's success is being whittled down to failure. Reineke is either ghosted or forgotten unless someone needs something.

One of my core tenets as a teacher is never to use the success of a minority as proof of a method -- the ones who succeed aren't the ones who need the guidance of a teacher or a method. I have no doubt that a minority of people out there can achieve incredible things from input exposure, but the evidence shows they are exactly that -- a minority. Certainly, I am not part of that minority, as I handle uncertainty worse than most.

reineke wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
reineke wrote:

Bill VanPatten wrote:Do you ever remember being taught what round meant? And if you do, did you understand that definition? Most likely, you weren’t taught anything about roundedness. Over time, you developed a notion of roundedness from lots of exposure to round objects. In short, your knowledge of roundedness comes from the numerous samples of roundedness you were exposed to. Mental representation for language develops much in the same way.

Not if by "language" he means "second language". Even if you work in an immersive monolingual environment, learners will always attempt to pin new vocab onto existing preformed concepts. If you teach redondo in Spanish, learners are either going to get it slightly wrong and confuse it with the cognate "rotund" or they're going to associate it with the pre-formed concept represented by the word "round".


If you present the word in isolation and ask sudents to brainstorm you will get all kinds of answers. You can of course provide some context.

That sounds like hell to me. I can see no reason to spend several minutes discussing an answer with people who don't know the answer, when the answer could be instantly provided by the man or woman next to the whiteboard or a quick trip to WordReference on my phone.

As I said, though, I know my tolerance for uncertainty is lower than most people's, so I do remember to keep that in mind when considering what is appropriate for other people. However, I do remember seeing a study by Mondria (summarised in his article on vocab myths) which showed that inferring meaning had no noticeable benefit over being given the meaning, and took longer. To me that suggests that most other people aren't really much better at learning without being certain than me, just that they're better at handling it emotionally than me.
In an immersion environment you may read or hear

número redondo - round number
agujero redondo - round hole
objeto redondo - round object
la mesa redonda - round table
Caballeros de la Mesa Redonda -
The Knights of the Round Table
and many other combinations.

Compare that to:

okrugli broj
okrugla rupa
okrugli predmet
okrugli stol

The collocations work in your favor once you start picking up some basic vocabulary. At first glance however you can easily come up with a theory that it's impossible to pick up words from spoken context. And yet...

There's two caveats to that:
1) Repetition, whether of single words, collocations or phrases/idioms is not guaranteed in an unplanned context. Learning by example needs some level of comparison, and if repetitions or comparable items are too dispersed in time, one example won't be available to the brain to compare with the next. In a planned course, items can be deliberately repeated and/or presented alongside different forms to allow the learner to build up memory and understanding of relationships.
2)The example of the Round Table shows that at times, even in a fully monolingual external environment, everyone falls back on their mother tongue (and/or previously studied languages). Le Table Ronde is not understood by learning a new French concept. La Mesa Redonda is not understood by learning a new Spanish concept. Both are understood by the same concept I already have tied to the English phrase "the Round Table". Not only this, but the structure of the phrase is understood through the English too.
In fact, this sort of phrase is often used to demonstrate grammatical rules in immersive classes precisely because understanding the concept through the native language lens makes the grammatical pattern pretty explicit.

To me, that says that monolingual teachers are involved in a fair degree of self-deception.

But put that to one side: "developed a notion of roundedness from lots of exposure to round objects. […] Mental representation for language develops much in the same way"
As soon as an English speaker understands the phrase "la mesa redonda", they are activating the mental concepts of table, of round, and of the-round-table, unavoidably. They are linking new word forms to pre-existing concepts.

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:53 pm
by Xmmm
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/19/health/l ... index.html

All these people learning from TV using native language subtitles ... makes me wonder why I do it the hard way, lol ...

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:30 pm
by reineke
Xmmm wrote:https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/19/health/learn-new-language-telenovela-trick/index.html
...


(CNN) — Every day for about five years, Israeli sisters Reut and Shoham Nistel ran home from school, made themselves sandwiches and plopped down on the couch to watch an Argentine telenovela with Hebrew subtitles.
The girls became so proficient in Spanish that they started speaking it at home to keep secrets from their parents.
"That's how we learned English, too," said Reut, now 26. "We had English class in school, but I never paid attention. All my English is from 'Full House' and 'Family Matters...

"Although excessive screen time is often frowned upon, language experts say that watching shows in a foreign language -- if done with near obsession -- can help someone learn that language.
"These stories are hugely common," said Melissa Baese-Berk, associate professor of linguistics and director of the Second Language Acquisition and Teaching program at the University of Oregon.
"Our Japanese classes are full of Chinese students and American students who grew up watching Japanese anime, and without having any formal training in Japanese, their comprehension is quite reasonable," he said. "It's a transnational phenomenon, and it makes sense."
Baese-Berk says science supports what these young people have experienced. Studies show that it's best to acquire a language through both active and passive learning, and watching shows in a foreign language involves both...
Copied from a thread titled "Listening vs Comprehension (and the case against TV)"

Listen to voices from smaller countries where people watch foreign television with interest. These guys were not "inputting" while jumping up and down in their seats and yelling "are we there yet?"

"According to Albanians I met during my studies in Pisa, the most important reason why they can speak Italian is that they are able to watch Italian Television from Albania, therefore allowing them to pick up the language since they are children.

Also, many dream about studying in universities in Italy, and this may enhance the motivation for studying and speaking Italian."

Giancarlo

"Honestly in my personal exp, I loved watching cartoons and the Italian ones on Rai & Canale5 were nicer than the Albanian ones. We had just come out of communism and Italian TV was the first approach with the outside world. The rest is history… :)"

Eri

" And the answer is Dragon Ball Z | Goku. Italia Uno"

Elvis

"... after democracy took place in Albania, Italian channels were the hit thing here up until the 2000s. Every kid of the 90s would watch the shows. "

Comment: According to the General Assembly of the Italian Language in the World the levels of Italian proficiency actually dropped in Albania after the switch to digital broadcasting. I dare say that Albania had more qualified Italian teachers in 2016 than it did in the 1990s. See also "learning without the Internet and other distractions."

"In my opinion, every single person has her / his own way to learn English. For me, the best way has always been watching films, cartoons, tv shows and certain tv channels like BBC or Sky news. Since I was little I watched cartoon network and despite I didn't understood a word I kept watching and now I see that it was a good thing to do :) About the films, in Portugal none of the films are translated but instead we have subtitles. That is a very good thing.. "

"Hello! My name is Alexandra. I believe that “there are two things that define you: Your patience when you have NOTHING, and your attitude when you have EVERYTHING.” (Unknown author)...

When I started, I had little knowledge of english language (we didn't learn english in school. I knew english from CartoonNetwork channel – many people find that to be funny, I guess it is) but that didn't stoped me. Fast forward in time, in 2009 I've started international freelancing and in March 2010 I got hired by a Marketing Company from USA, working remote. The story is in progress.."

"Italian and French translator Anna Minoli learned English by watching undubbed versions of her favorite movies, while Croatian translator Ivan Stamenković suddenly realized he could speak English in fifth grade, after years of watching the Cartoon Network without subtitles. "
http://blog.ed.ted.com/2016/01/19/how-t ... anslators/

What happened to CN?

" I grew up watching CN too, and i also learned fluent english by watching it (i'm romanian), but nowdays almost all the good shows are off to the advantage of stuff like B-daman (wtf?) or Transformer (god i h8 that...it'z zo lame) And besides...now it's TRANSLATED into Romanian... "

" yes :( I grew up watching CN, that's how I learned most of my english vocabulary... I remember I used to be completely pissed when the channel ended and another one started, TNT I believe.. "

http://forum.deviantart.com/devart/gene ... 0#comments

" I learned most of my early english from TV. I grew up in the Netherlands, speaking Frisian at home and Dutch at school. At the time dutch tv did not offer much programming aimed at children, the more interesting cartoons to be found on cable tv were on english language channels. I would tape Transformers episodes and watch them over and over. Later on I started consuming other media (video games + video game magazines, american comics), so that by the time they started teaching english to me at school I was already relatively fluent."

A generation of Romanian kids learned English from Cartoon Network

https://steemit.com/life/@ionescur/a-ge ... on-network

Learning Languages in Your Pajamas, Eating Captain Crunch

"I went into the TV room of our dormitory, and I spent the next several hours watching cartoons: “Die Retter Der Erde”, “Die Simpsons”, and “Die Familie Feuerstein.” Around twelve o’clock, I ran back to my room, during a commercial, and made a stack of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, with the crusts cut off. Accompanied by a glass of chocolate milk I ate my sandwiches while watching shows for big people, like “Raumschiff Enterprise”, “Ein Käfig voller Helden”, and “Unbekannte Dimensionen.”

I watched till I thought my retinas would burnout. It was a struggle, but I knew this was the price I would have to pay if I wanted to learn German.

Before I knew it, night had come, and I was still glued to the TV. I wasn’t understanding everything, in fact, I probably understood less than 20%, but I knew that I was learning. So, the next morning, instead of going back to the university, the site of my defeat, I stayed home and watched TV. I set up a rigid schedule for myself of watching TV and working out (to burn off the Captain Crunch) and I stuck to it. Over the next several weeks, I saw my listening and speaking grow by leaps and bounds.
. I would watch “The Godfather,” “Simpsons,” “Star Trek,” — anything I enjoyed watching I watched again in German. German students would come in the TV room and ask me “Did you understand all of that.”

“No.”

“You shouldn’t watch that.”

“Why, are you going to ship me off to a camp?” Sometimes I actually said things like this as a way of getting Germans to leave me alone. Sometimes, I felt like practicing my speaking, so I continued the argument. It was like a free German conversation lesson, the cost of which was a little anger.

“Aren’t you worried that you don’t understand everything?” asked the German.

“Why? Do we have a test?”

“You shouldn’t be watching TV and reading things you don’t understand.”

“But if I only read things I understand, I won’t learn anything. Besides, it would be really boring because I would only be reading children’s books.”

“But ‘The Simpsons’ is a cartoon. Cartoons are for children.”

“Don’t say, that!”

http://www.hackwriters.com/CaptainCrunch.htm

INFLUENCE OF CARTOON NETWORK
ON THE ACQUISITION OF AMERICAN ENGLISH DURING CHILDHOOD

Sorry about the caps

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Z8aw1Xj8Uw

obsession.jpg
obsession.jpg (47.05 KiB) Viewed 412 times

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:59 pm
by Cainntear
reineke wrote:"Although excessive screen time is often frowned upon, language experts say that watching shows in a foreign language -- if done with near obsession -- can help someone learn that language.

Most people won't get obsessive.

"These stories are hugely common," said Melissa Baese-Berk, associate professor of linguistics and director of the Second Language Acquisition and Teaching program at the University of Oregon.
"Our Japanese classes are full of Chinese students and American students who grew up watching Japanese anime, and without having any formal training in Japanese, their comprehension is quite reasonable," he said. "It's a transnational phenomenon, and it makes sense."

Hugely common? Even among language learners, Japanese isn't all that common, and people studying it at university are a minority within a minority within a minority. And the whole anime thing is considered pretty geeky, so attracts people with obsessive personalities.

And yes, if you look around you'll find lots of people in lots of places who had lots of reasons to be drawn to media consumption and could become obsessed with it. But most of us cannot choose what to be obsessed with, so it's not a repeatable solution. Unless the Albanian government was to legally mandate that all Albanian TV had to be awful so that people were force to watch foreign TV on satellite, but that's not going to be much of a vote-winner.

Re: Examples of Input Only

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:56 am
by reineke
"Nearly one-fifth of Americans are hard-core hobbyists, hyper-focused zealots whose pastimes edge into obsession." Source: LA Times

The average American watches five hours and four minutes of television per day. Source: Nielsen Ratings. I suppose that's in addition to any regular hobbies.

I've consumed audiobooks and other media in my secondary languages for fun and relaxation.

Back to the article:

"Stephen Snyder, dean of language schools at Middlebury College in Vermont, said this story sounds familiar to him."

"Vardit Ringvald, a professor of languages and linguistics at Middlebury and director of the school's Hebrew program, said she learned Spanish by watching "Andrea Celeste," another Argentine telenovela.

"When I married my husband, who's from Uruguay, I didn't speak a word of Spanish," she said. "After three months of watching 'Andrea Celeste,' I was fluent"

Wow. Wait, is this the same college s_allard likes to talk about so much?

s_allard wrote:Now contrast this with a 7-week intensive course in French this year at Middlebury College Language School that will set you back around 10,000 USD. I've never heard anybody complain about learning bad French at Middlebury or that their French ends up full of fossilized mistakes. Quite the contrary, the program is highly praised for its great results.


Why yes it is.

Xmmm wrote:https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/19/health/learn-new-language-telenovela-trick/index.html

All these people learning from TV using native language subtitles ... makes me wonder why I do it the hard way, lol ...


Baese-Berk said there are three tricks to learning a foreign language through a show.

First, it has to be highly engaging...

Second, it's best if the show has subtitles, so when viewers hear a new word, they can look down and find it in written form in their own language.

Third, the storyline should be repetitive.

"Telenovelas have a predictable structure: They have a problem, and they find a solution. You can follow the plot pretty easily," Baese-Berk said.
She and other experts add that although watching shows goes a long way, it's best to pair it with formal language training to learn grammar and structure. Children might naturally learn languages more easily, but the telenovela technique can work with adults, too.

X-nay on L1 subs...

More on subtitles

"The question remains, however, whether, and to what extent, watching subtitled programmes over time helps develop learners’ language skills in various ways. Perhaps surprisingly, this question of long-term language development has still not been fully addressed in the research literature and we appear to be in a largely ‘confirmatory’ cycle. At an informal level, on the other hand, there are countless stories of learners who have been assisted in learning a foreign language by watching subtitled or captioned films and television."

Robert Vanderplank

Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 3&start=10