English as lingua franca

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Josquin
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby Josquin » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:01 pm

Marais wrote:For some reason people must seem to think i'm making all this stuff up. Just go to youtube and see what is trending in the country. No English speaker ever is going to go and watch youtube in French or German. The opposite is not true.

The French are actually one of the least adept at English when compared with Belgians, Germans, the Swiss or Scandinavians. I don't know about Spain or Italy.

But everyone in Germany speaks English. Kids at school don't get good at English because they have English lessons. They get good at English because they are consuming English native material - ie, media.

At the risk of annoying you (which I really don't intend to, I'm just trying to convince you of my point of view): Yes, there are "trendy" videos in English on YouTube, but at least at the moment most of it deals with the US elections, especially speeches by Donald Trump. That's not what interests most teenagers. Equally, Steven Colbert, John Oliver, and so on are popular among university students and the like, not teenagers. Also, as far as I can tell most videos are in German rather than English anyway.

I don't deny that German teenagers watch Youtube in English, they certainly do. But they don't do it as much as you might think. English music, English games, yes! But English news or movies, no. In any case, why are they able to follow this content? Because they learn English at school and Germany has quite a good school system (which doesn't mean it doesn't get criticized a lot). One affects the other. Yes, they will use the English they learn at school by consuming English media, which will in reverse improve their English. But German schoolchildren start learning English when they're 7 or 8. When I was at school, it was around 10 or 11. I'd say I was pretty fluent with 15, but I still wasn't really able to follow full-fledged native content when I left school with 19. And English is really taught efficiently and considered to be an "easy" language for Germans.

I guess your point is that English media have an attractiveness media in other languages don't really have. And I think you're right. And due to our history, we have a great affinity towards the US, its culture, and its media. But nevertheless, most of these media are consumed in German translation. The only big exception is music, which is mostly in English. This may slightly be changing since the advent of the Internet, social media, and so on, but at least at the moment most media in Germany is still consumed in German, especially by people with lower education levels.

And this, last but not least, is the one point where I really have to disagree: Everybody in Germany does not speak English. My parents are German monoglots and my siblings speak English rather poorly. They're not even able to tell apart an American accent from a British accent. More and more people have at least basic knowledge of English, but it's not like everybody were perfectly fluent.
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby reineke » Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:07 pm

I don't think that many Europeans would even attempt to consume native English-language media without some formal education. This is a likelier scenario in smaller, information-poor countries. If you look at the actual research, relatively few Europeans consume significant amounts of raw English-language entertainment.

The Flash Eurobarometer User language preferences online was conducted to examine Internet users’ attitudes and opinions towards the use of different languages on the Internet. In detail, the survey examined:

- Languages, other than respondents’ own, that are used on the Internet: (a) when reading or watching content on the Internet, and (b) when writing on the Internet
- Use of a language, other than respondents’ own, for different Internet activities
...
"Readers of this report should bear in mind that Flash Eurobarometer (No 313) only included Internet users and that the proportion of Internet users varied greatly between EU Member States:

In countries, such as the Netherlands and Sweden, more than 90% of all individuals contacted during the survey’s fieldwork reported having used the Internet in the four weeks prior to the survey. In other words, a survey among Internet users ...covers almost the whole adult population of these countries.

Other countries, such as Greece, Romania and Bulgaria, had lower Internet penetration rates and less than half of all individuals contacted reported having used the Internet in the past four weeks. In these countries, the population of Internet users represents a selective group of the total adult population – a group of adults that was more likely to be male, younger, highly educated and living in urban/metropolitan areas; in other words, a group of adults that was more likely to have literacy and language skills in a language, other than their own.

Languages, other than respondents’ own, that are used on the Internet

A slim majority (55%) of Internet users in the EU said that they used at least one language other than their own to read or watch content on the Web and slightly more than a third (35%) used another language when writing emails, sending messages or posting comments on the Web.

In 23 of the 27 EU Member States, at least half of Internet users used a language other than their own to read and watch content on the Internet; this proportion ranged from 50% in Hungary to 90%-93% in Greece, Slovenia, Luxembourg, Malta and Cyprus. In Italy, the Czech Republic, Ireland and the UK, a majority of Internet users said that they only used their own language to read and watch content on the Internet (between 52% and 85%). "

Note: In Germany 35% of Internet users said that they only used their own language.

"English was by far the most frequently used language, other than respondents’ own, when going online: 48% of Internet users in the EU mentioned using English for reading or watching content on the Internet.

When looking at the frequency of using English on the Internet, it was noted that those who used this language occasionally outnumbered those who used it frequently or all the time.

In all EU Member States, browsing the Internet to get information, reading or watching the news and communicating with friends and acquaintances were mentioned by some of the largest proportions of respondents as online activities that they at least occasionally carried out in a language other than their own.

Respondents’ opinions about the availability of websites in several languages

Although 9 in 10 Internet users in the EU said that, when given a choice of languages, they always visited a website in their own language, a slim majority (53%) would accept using an English version of a website if it was not available in their own language.

Furthermore, while two-thirds – or more – respondents in Sweden (67%), Slovenia (68%), Bulgaria and Lithuania (both 69%) said they had gone online several times a day in the past four weeks, only half as many Italians gave a similar response (33%).

The younger the respondents were, the more likely they were to have used the Internet several times a day in the past four weeks; the proportion of “heavy” Internet users increased from 48% of the over 54 year-olds to 65% of the 15-24 year-olds. Similarly, while 36% of respondents with the lowest level of education used the Internet this frequently, this proportion increased to 62% for those with the highest level of education and 65% for full-time students.

Men, 15-39 year-olds, full-time students, respondents with the highest level of education, those living in metropolitan areas, employees and the self-employed were also more likely than their counterparts to say that they used at least one language other than their mother tongue to read or watch content on the Internet. For example, 67% of respondents with the highest level of education and 79% of full-time students said they used another language than their own to read or watch content on the Internet, compared to 25% of respondents with the lowest level of education. Similarly, 60% of the 15-24 year-olds and 43% of 25-39 year-olds said they used a different language than their own when writing online, compared to 31% of the 40-54 year-olds and 24% of over 54 year-olds.

English was by far the most frequently used language, other than the respondents’ own, for reading or watching content on the Internet. Almost half (48%) of Internet users in the EU mentioned using English for these online activities. Spanish, German and French were other languages that were mentioned by a relatively high number of respondents (4%-6%).

Among those who used English for reading or watching content on the Internet, 13% said that they used this language all the time and 26% said that they used it frequently, while a majority (61%) answered that they occasionally used English for reading and watching content.

In the UK and Ireland, where not many Internet users mentioned using a second language, French was the most commonly used foreign language for reading or watching content on the Internet (9% and 7%, respectively).

Country variations – frequency of using English

The individual country results for those who used English to read or watch content on the Web showed that respondents in Germany, France, Poland and Austria were the least likely to use English frequently or all the time for the these online activities (between 29% and 32%).

Among those who used English for these online activities, certain socio-demographic groups were more likely than others to be frequent users – using English frequently or all the time, rather than occasionally, to read or watch content on the Web. These frequent users of English were more likely to be men (46% vs. 32% of women), those with the highest level of education and full-time students (43% and 50%, respectively, vs. 28%-30% across all other educational groups), younger respondents (49% of 15-24 year-olds and 45% of 25-39 year-olds vs. 33%-34% across other age groups), metropolitan residents (47% vs. 30% of rural residents) and the self-employed (47% vs. 29% of manual workers and 39% of employees and non-working respondents).

The more frequently respondents used the Internet, the more likely they were to say that they used English frequently or all the time online: 46% for “heavy” users vs. 16% for the least frequent Internet users (“about once a month”).

Across almost all EU Member States, browsing to get information, or reading or watching the news was the most frequently mentioned online activity performed in a language other than the respondent’s own. Respondents in Luxembourg and Slovenia were the most likely to say that they at least occasionally used a language other than their own when browsing to get information or reading or watching the news on the Web (both 96%). Respondents in Italy and the UK, on the other hand, were the least likely to say that they at least occasionally used a language other than their own when browsing the Internet to get information or when reading or watching the news on the Web (68%-70%).

In almost all Member States, a majority of respondents said that they used a language other than their own when searching for or buying products (e.g. online shopping) and services (e.g. tourism) on the Internet.

Compared with other activities discussed so far, respondents in most Member States were less likely to use a language other than their own when browsing for entertainment . While Slovenes (67%), Greeks (71%) and Cypriots (78%) were the most likely to use another language when browsing for entertainment on the Web, less than 4 in 10 respondents did so in the Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Ireland and the UK (36%-38%). Furthermore, the proportion of respondents who said they used a foreign language frequently or all the time when browsing for entertainment remained below 33% in almost all countries (from 11% in the Netherlands to 31% in Slovenia)."

The younger the respondents, the more likely they were to carry out the following Internet activities in a foreign language: browsing to get information, or reading or watching the news (89% of 15-24 year-olds vs. 76% of over 54 year-olds), communicating with friends and acquaintances (76% vs. 56%), browsing the Internet for entertainment (77% vs. 26%) and learning about job or educational opportunities (61% vs. 29%). On the other hand, 25-39 year-olds were more likely than their counterparts to use a language other than their own to communicate online for professional reasons (63% vs. 39% of over 54 year-olds), to search for or buy products and services online (62% vs. 48%) and to carry out banking operations online (28% vs. 20%).

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_313_en.pdf
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby reineke » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:11 pm

This is pre-Brexit but the articles offer good insight into people's attitudes towards this issue.

Should English be the only official language of the EU?
"Language is always going to be a contentious issue, bound as it is to questions of culture and identity. Whilst there are 24 official languages in the EU, studies suggest that almost 40% of Europeans speak English as a foreign language (not counting the 13% that speak it as a mother tongue). That’s almost four times as many foreign language speakers as either of the next most popular languages in Europe, French and German. And the English language is only growing increasingly more dominant, not just in Europe but around the world.

Curious about the status of English compared to other languages in Europe? We’ve put together some language statistics...

One of our Greek readers, Christos, sent us in a comment arguing that – whether people like it or not – English is the “emerging language of Europe”. He argued that English should be made the official language of the EU, so that everybody learns it next to their native tongue. Christos believes that this approach would help boost Europe’s economy and sense of unity, because it would make it easier for workers to travel and work anywhere in the Union:

For example, if I as a Greek want to move to Hungary and I do not speak Hungarian, I could move there by just speaking English and get a job anywhere…

Hungary may not have been the best example, as that is the EU country where the greatest number of people (65%) admit to not speaking any foreign languages at all. However, his general point remains.

Christos wasn’t alone in his suggestion. We also had a comment sent in from Pedro, who argued that we should be “honest” and admit that “the English language will dominate the world in the years to come, if it doesn’t already.” "

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/should-english-be-the-only-official-language-of-the-eu/

English should be the language of Europe, claims Germany's president as he begs Britain not to leave the European Union
He said English had become the 'lingua franca' of the continent
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2282992/English-language-Europe-claims-Germanys-president-begs-Britain-leave-European-Union.html#ixzz4PjDR1bcU

I want you to speak English or get out (in French)
http://bruxelles.blogs.liberation.fr/2012/05/31/peut-on-gouverner-une-zone-euro-qui-compte-330-millions-de-citoyens-dans-une-langue-qui-nest-parlee-que-par-moins-de-5-mi/
Last edited by reineke on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby William Camden » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:04 pm

DaveBee wrote:
William Camden wrote:I have been struck by how few Turkish speakers know English. Younger people of Turkish origin living in Germany generally have some grasp of English, but I suspect that the German education system and some exposure to German culture is the reason for that. The Turkish education system appears to be lousy at teaching languages.
I was in Turkey years ago interpreting at a symposium and generally being a fixer etc. I accompanied some Palestinians to their hotel in Istanbul. The hotel staff only spoke Turkish. I ended up interpreting for them, as most of the Palestinians spoke English. Afterwards one of the Palestinians asked why nobody knew English even when they worked in a hotel in central Istanbul. I expressed the view that the education system for most people was not great and a certain nationalism made people resist foreign languages. The Palestinian replied, "I am nationalist but I have learned English."
I'm surprised to hear that. I went on a package holiday to Turkey 10(?) years ago, and we seemed to be perpetually harassed by vendors with useable english.

It might depend where you are, and also whether you run into that section of the population that makes a living from direct contact with tourists. Even I was surprised to find uniformly monoglot Turkish speakers working in a hotel in central Istanbul. If it had been in the back of beyond, I would not have been. My feeling is that it is more worthwhile for a tourist to learn something of the local language in Turkey than in most places.
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby William Camden » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:14 pm

It is interesting how lingua francas change. Alan Turing, who was no linguist, found he needed to learn some German in the 1930s to keep up with mathematical trends. In some areas of science a knowledge of Russian was useful if not indispensible until perhaps the 1990s.
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby reineke » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:32 pm

William Camden wrote:
DaveBee wrote:
William Camden wrote:I have been struck by how few Turkish speakers know English. Younger people of Turkish origin living in Germany generally have some grasp of English, but I suspect that the German education system and some exposure to German culture is the reason for that. The Turkish education system appears to be lousy at teaching languages.
I was in Turkey years ago interpreting at a symposium and generally being a fixer etc. I accompanied some Palestinians to their hotel in Istanbul. The hotel staff only spoke Turkish. I ended up interpreting for them, as most of the Palestinians spoke English. Afterwards one of the Palestinians asked why nobody knew English even when they worked in a hotel in central Istanbul. I expressed the view that the education system for most people was not great and a certain nationalism made people resist foreign languages. The Palestinian replied, "I am nationalist but I have learned English."
I'm surprised to hear that. I went on a package holiday to Turkey 10(?) years ago, and we seemed to be perpetually harassed by vendors with useable english.

It might depend where you are, and also whether you run into that section of the population that makes a living from direct contact with tourists. Even I was surprised to find uniformly monoglot Turkish speakers working in a hotel in central Istanbul. If it had been in the back of beyond, I would not have been. My feeling is that it is more worthwhile for a tourist to learn something of the local language in Turkey than in most places.


"Indeed, raw data from AES suggest that Turkey is the country with the highest percentage of individuals who declare no knowledge of any FL (75.5% in the whole sample), compared to the Europe-27 average of 37.5%. The numbers from Turkey are relatively similar only to those from Hungary (74.8%) and Romania (69.6%).

It appears that English is the most widely known FL, with almost 80% of those who possess some knowledge of FLs declaring that English is one of the languages they know  at least to some extent. This evidence reflects the preeminence of English as Lingua Franca during recent decades. German represents the second most frequent language known by 12%, and considerably less common than English. The number of German speakers in Turkey reflects Germany’s position both as an important trade partner for Turkey, with the largest share of Turkey’ exports as noted above, and also as a traditional destination country for Turkish immigrants. Arabic is the third most frequent language (9.5%), which is taught as subject in religious vocation high schools and might be common among the indigenous population in the south-southeast of the country as well as to people with some migration experience in MENA countries (which were alternative migration destinations during the ‘80s), followed by French (7.3%), which was widely taught as part of the oldest generation’s schooling. Less common are Russian (2.6%) and Bulgarian (0.4%) both of which are not taught in the school system. However, these two languages are likely to be commonly known by ethnic Turks who migrated from Bulgaria, as well as returning Turkish workers from the migration wave towards Russia and Central Asia that occurred in since the 1990s (Tansel and Yaar, 2010).

Crossing this information with birth-cohort reveals that English is relatively more common within the younger cohort, as is Russian, while the knowledge of German, Arabic and French is somewhat higher among older populations. Disentangling the frequency of FL knowledge by education suggests that, on the one hand, English is mostly learnt through the schooling process for younger cohorts while French was more commonly learnt at school among older cohorts. On the other hand, Russian, German, and especially Arabic are significantly more common among the less educated. In particular, almost 50 percent of Arabic speakers sampled have 5 or fewer years of schooling."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267226599_Returns_to_Foreign_Language_Skills_in_a_Developing_Country_The_Case_of_Turkey
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby reineke » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:32 pm

"As we have seen, a global language arises mainly due to the political and economic power of its native speakers. It was British imperial and industrial power that sent English around the globe between the 17th and 20th Century. The legacy of British imperialism has left many counties with the language thoroughly institutionalized in their courts, parliament, civil service, schools and higher education establishments. In other counties, English provides a neutral means of communication between different ethnic groups.

But it has been largely American economic and cultural supremacy - in music, film and television; business and finance; computing, information technology and the Internet; even drugs and pornography - that has consolidated the position of the English language and continues to maintain it today. American dominance and influence worldwide makes English crucially important for developing international markets, especially in the areas of tourism and advertising, and mastery of English also provides access to scientific, technological and academic resources which would otherwise be denied developing countries."

http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/issues_global.html
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Re: English as lingua franca

Postby William Camden » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:55 am

When I first went to Turkey in the 1990s I visited a human rights NGO. At the time I spoke no Turkish and nobody spoke English. I did however find a German speaker. My feeling is that in the 1980s and early 1990s at least English and German were in a roughly similar position and it was only later that English decisively moved ahead.
In terms of Arabic, there are actually ethnic Arabs living in Turkey, not counting Syrian refugees of the past few years. The ethnic Arabs are mainly found in Hatay, close to the border with Syria. They speak dialects of north Syrian Arabic, though often with large numbers of Turkish words mixed into their speech. I have met a few of them. They often cannot read the standard Arabic language (MSA), which has generally not been taught in the education system, although Koranic Arabic is taught by religious schools, and they can only partly follow Arabic language news broadcasts, which is a good example of the diglossia you find in Arabic.
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