English as lingua franca

[PeterMollenburg]

As for English it's very much multifactorial. The motivations are different for each individual was to why they learn any foreign language and English generally has much of what often attracts people to other languages but on a much larger scale -

entertainment (massive volumes of music, television/movies, literature, computer games)

tourism (welcoming foreign tourists, going to other countries)

access to speakers (English spoken in more countries than any other language, spoken as a mother tongue and foreign language by first or 2nd amount of total number of speakers of any language)

business (more and more so business is conducted in English all around the world)

Internet and other modern technologies (English is still number one in internet for language)

Science and research (predominantly in English when compared to other languags)

Employment opportunities (from Sweden to South Africa, Mexico to wherever English inreases your chances of gaining employment and likely adds income to your salary, generally speaking. Much of this is the result of an increasingly globalized world in which English is on top at the right time)

etc etc etc. Thus what motivates one individual to learn English compared to another could be starkly different. There are many reasons people want to learn the language. For one it may indeed be for all the 'cool' stuff coming out of Hollywood or on the internet. For another, without it they may not be able to work with colleagues from other countries as they conduct research together and produce scientific analysis).

I personally feel that globalisation is a very bad thing (no need for details, and I respect others see it rather differently), but in a world where we are other by chance or imo being deliberately driven down a globalised path, and not for improving our world (again my opinion), still, in the end whether natural or orchestrated English is increasingly a global language due to such things mentioned above that see us mixing together among another nationalities more and more frequently.

[Josquin]

@Marais: Believe me or don't! Maybe, as a German, I know more about the situation in my native country than you do, but maybe I don't. The Internet also exists in different languages than English, you know? Also, you don't need to understand the lyrics of a song to like it.

I don't really think you being German gives you any more insight then the rest of us. You're arguing that hardly any media on TV or radio is in English. And i never said it was. I said 'media' and media appears on more platforms than TV.

13 year old European kids don't learn English to better their prospects. They learn it because the popular news, youtubers, films etc are all in English. Just like the Scandi's do.

Anyway enough derailing if you want to continue this discussion i'm happy to have you PM me if i can receive them.

As we have an extra thread for this topic now, I take the liberty of answering here. You're right there is a lot of media available in English, but maybe you simply don't know how much media is available in other languages than English. As I said, all movies and TV shows are dubbed in Germany (and I think my being German should be a valid source for this claim). Also, there are German Youtubers that probably aren't well known in English speaking countries, but they exist and they're famous here. Yes, a lot of popular music is in English, but I'd say most people neither understand the lyrics nor do they really care for them.

It's probably true that thirteen-year-olds don't necessarily learn English because they are thinking of their careers, but I daresay their teachers and parents do. They make them learn it, just as they make them learn maths. And everyone knows how important English is! Wealthy parents even send their children to English speaking countries for language courses. And while thirteen-year-olds may speak quite acceptable English, they are far from fluency or even perfection.

I will agree that English-language media add to the popularity of the language and to its attractiveness, but I doubt that most Germans actually consume a lot of media in English. A lot of educated people, such as university students, prefer to watch movies and series in English these days, but there's always the possibility of watching everything in German. Outside of big cities, you won't find a lot of cinemas showing new movies in other languages than German. This is not true for Scandinavian countries or the Netherlands, where movies are only subtitled rather than dubbed. Even on Netflix, everything exists in German dubbing.

It's perfectly possible to use the Internet in German for everything you need, so you're probably overestimating the importance of English in this regard, too. Once again, people with good education will also use English-language websites, but nobody is learning English in order to get access to the Internet! That's a gross exaggeration. Also, absolutely nobody except for university graduates interested in the UK or the US consumes the news in English! We have our own media, we're not dependent of English-language media.

[Marais]

As we have an extra thread for this topic now, I take the liberty of answering here. You're right there is a lot of media available in English, but maybe you simply don't know how much media is available in other languages than English. As I said, all movies and TV shows are dubbed in Germany (and I think my being German should be a valid source for this claim). Also, there are German Youtubers that probably aren't well known in English speaking countries, but they exist and they're famous here. Yes, a lot of popular music is in English, but I'd say most people neither understand the lyrics nor do they really care for them.

It's probably true that 13 year olds don't necessarily learn English because they are thinking of their careers, but I daresay their teachers and parents do. They make them learn it, just as they make them learn maths. And everyone knows how important English is! Wealthy parents even send their children to English speaking countries for language courses. And while 13 year olds may speak quite acceptable English, they are far from fluency or even perfection.

I will agree that English-language media add to the popularity of the language and to its attractiveness, but I doubt that most Germans actually consume a lot of media in English. A lot of educated people, such as university students, prefer to watch movies and series in English these days, but there's always the possibility of watching everything in German. Outside of big cities, you won't find a lot of cinemas showing new movies in other languages than German. This is not true for Scandinavian countries or the Netherlands, where movies are only subtitled rather than dubbed.

It's perfectly possible to use the Internet in German for everything you need, so you're probably overestimating the importance of English in this regard, too. Once again, people with good education will also use English-language websites, but nobody is learning English in order to get access to the Internet! That's a gross exaggeration. Also, absolutely nobody except for university graduates consumes the news in English! We have our own media, we're not dependent of English-language media.

[rude statement removed] I've made my point.

I've stopped short of proving it, but i'll do that now.

Go to youtube.de and click 'trending'.

Out of the first 48 videos that come up for me before the 'trending last week' section starts, 21 are in English.

Point proven.

[LadyGrey1986]

Josquin, could you please give me the names of some of those Youtubers? Watching them would be a fun way to maintain and improve my German. I am a fan of Extra3!

DaveBee, the Netherlands does have a language requirement for immigrants who are not from the EU, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein or Turkey. Most immigrants take the inburgeringsexamen (civic integration exam). Unfortunately, the end level is only A2. Those who want to enroll in Dutch higher eduction take het Staatsexamen NT2 (Dutch as Second Language State Exam). The end level of the Staatsexamen is either B1 or B2.

[Josquin]

Josquin, could you please give me the names of some of those Youtubers? Watching them would be a fun way to maintain and improve my German. I am a fan of Extra3!

Uh, sorry, I only know they exist, I don't really follow them. There was this one Youtuber who even got to interview Angela Merkel before the last election, but I've forgotten his name. LeFloid, or something like that? Probably my niece could give you better advice.

[Ogrim]

What Josquin says above regarding Germany is even more true for France and Spain, two countries I know well. Yes, in both countries young people have to learn English, it is an obligatory subject in school, but outside of school they will consume media in their own language, not English. Besides, the English language education they get in school can be of very varying quality, so one should not overestimate their ability to enjoy English speaking youtubers or gamers. They find their youtube heroes and listen to pop music in their own language most of the time. Like Germany, these are countries were all films and series are dubbed, so you hardly ever hear English spoken on TV. For example, when they transmitted the speeches of D. Trump and H. Clinton yesterday, they had a professional interpreter who did the "voiceover" live, so you got their speeches in French interpretation.

Yes, English is today's lingua franca, but it is a lingua franca for international business, politics, science and tourism. In major European countries like Germany, Italy, France and Spain, the huge majority of people do not need English to go about their daily lives.

[Josquin]

I've made my point.

I've stopped short of proving it, but i'll do that now.

Go to youtube.de and click 'trending'.

Out of the first 48 videos that come up for me before the 'trending last week' section starts, 21 are in English.

Point proven.

If you're not open for rational arguments and discussion, then what are you doing on a discussion board, if I may ask?

Yes, the trends on Youtube are in English. That doesn't prove thirteen-year-olds watch them though. Also, most of it covers the election in the US. That's not typically what thirteen-year-olds watch...

[Serpent]

Yeah, and 21 out of 48 is less than half really. If anything, this proves that Germans watch lots of stuff in German.

Besides, while Scandinavians consume a lot of subtitled media, not all of it is in English. They don't seem to get conversational even in Swedish/Norwegian this way* (let's not speak about Danish ) I do believe in input but the mindset is important too.

*it does seem like they're often better at production than they give themselves credit for.

[DaveBee]

What Josquin says above regarding Germany is even more true for France and Spain, two countries I know well. Yes, in both countries young people have to learn English, it is an obligatory subject in school, but outside of school they will consume media in their own language, not English.

I've been trying to use french TV/film as much as possible (both dubbed and original productions) to improve my french. I've discovered a new respect for actors, I had not realised how much information could be conveyed when the audience didn't understand the dialogue.

[DaveBee]

Besides, while Scandinavians consume a lot of subtitled media, not all of it is in English. They don't seem to get conversational even in Swedish/Norwegian this way* (let's not speak about Danish ) I do believe in input but the mindset is important too.

*it does seem like they're often better at production than they give themselves credit for.

I quizzed a Dane about this once. "Could you and a Swede talk to one another in your own language and be understood?" She said yes, but it would probably be easier to speak english to each other! (both the Dane and the Swede lived in England at the time.)