Grammar through massive input (exposure)

[Marais]

Similarly, classroom/textbook attempts to put language into real contexts drop into contrived, fake examples. I can't remember the last time I managed to get anyone at an airport check-in desk, security check or border control to speak to me in anything other than English, and yet lots of books choose that as their "real-world context". (In particular, the passport check dialogue in a TY is often 6 or 7 lines, whereas the real conversation is typically "Hello, hello, thank you, thank you.")

This is too true. When i came to France to live permanently i came on the ferry.

Despite never speaking a word of English to anyone, i was spoken to in English by dock workers, the passport control, the coffee dispenser lady, the bar staff on the ship, the passport control in Ouistrehem. Similarly, i'm spoken to in English when i try to deal with anyone 'official'. My dentist, the doctor, the bank and the person who sold me a fridge all tried to speak English to me, even when i understood what they were saying in French and wasn't struggling in the conversation at all.

It's mind boggling that nobody in the education system has taken their erasmus year and their experiences, spent 10 minutes analysing them and come up with better contexts. It would be mind numbingly simple to do and yet its never done because tick-box exam passes are all that matter.

It's very easy to pass when you know exactly what the dialogue is going to be about and have 2 years to prepare for the final exam.

If however i'm talking to my neighbour about the work he's doing on his house and he suddenly points over and starts saying something about the cows in the next field, or pointing at the tree next to my house and saying something about how it was windy last night i'm going to very soon get lost if all i've ever had to know is some nonsense about buying tomatoes in the shop.

A typical adventure to the supermarket here is me walking round with a trolley, filling it with stuff without necessarily even reading what its called, getting to the check-out, saying 'bonjour', hearing the amount to pay and then saying 'bon journée au'voir.' THAT is real life. The problems come when they ask you if you've got a 'carte Carrefour?!' or 'hey! don't put your water or beer on the checkout because they weigh more than 8kgs and we like you to leave them in your trolley.' or 'do you want one of our magazines with our special offers and coupons in it?!'.

[Adrianslont]

Absolutely the same thing In my opinion.

You can ace maths tests all through high school but that doesn't make you a mathematician. You can ace history tests - and I did - and you are still not a historian. And I remember little more than bare bones. And likewise you can ace language tests and still not speak a language - as you point out.

Not at all the same thing. As i've already pointed out, you're for some reason talking about years after the fact, and what you 'remember', when the issue is that AS YOU ARE DOING THE EXAMS, as in, the day before, on the day, and the day after you ace a French test you actually don't know any French. That's the difference.

If you don't know algebra you fail the algebra test. If you don't know French you can still ace the test, as has been proven on millions of occasions by those with French qualifications who can't hold a basic conversation in the real world. That is a catastrophic failure. And it's a failure of 'teaching' and more specifically the school system.

This could get boring but I'll say it again - absolutely the same thing in my opinion.

I wasn't just talking about years later - please reread. You seem to think that passing a high school algebra test means you "know" algebra. It just means you know that topic. Likewise passing a topic test in high school French that is limited in its scope of vocabulary and grammar means you know that topic, at that level and usually just on paper, not orally. It doesn't mean you can talk to any French person about anything under any conditions. It takes a lot more than a high school course - even with excellent teachers and curriculum to become proficient in a language. And it takes a lot more than a high school course to become a mathematician, historian or scientist. That doesn't mean all of those subjects are taught badly. It just means there is limited time, varying levels of ability and interest.

Probably my last word on this subject - certainly in this thread. In the end it's all about different viewpoints.

[Cainntear]

It's mind boggling that nobody in the education system has taken their erasmus year and their experiences, spent 10 minutes analysing them and come up with better contexts. It would be mind numbingly simple to do and yet its never done because tick-box exam passes are all that matter.

Simple? Not so much.

First of all, the complexity of possible dialogues is mind-boggling, and in the end you would find yourself spending more time explaining the standard business practices of EDF and SFR than actually using the language -- useful knowledge. That's useful knowledge if you end up managing your own power and internet, but you have no way of knowing in advance which of your students are going to need to know that, and which ones will end up as tenants on an all-bills-included contract.

Besides, until you've actually been in that situation, it doesn't actually mean anything. Situational tasks are overrated.