Tim Ferris method

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Cainntear
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby Cainntear » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:43 pm

s_allard wrote:Does anybody here believe that after two days at the Paul Noble Institute, you will be conversing in any of the above languages? Well, it all depends how we define conversing. But let's not get started on that debate. No where is there a specific claim that you will achieve a CEFR A-anything in two days. Just conversing.

What has that got to do with it? Most of us here are completely aware that a lot of language products and services are sold by unjustifiable hyperbole. One marketer's hyperbole doesn't justify the next's -- two wrongs don't make a right.

Now, I've no idea how good a teacher Noble or any of his employees are, but I do know that there's a very significant difference between what PN offers and what TF offers: when you attend a Paul Noble course, the teacher comes into the room and teaches you. He/she stands in front of you and leads you through a series of tasks intended to teach you the language. At the end, it either works or it doesn't. The customer isn't left trying to interpret, fill in the gaps etc etc.

You say you like TF because it's similar to what you do -- I seem to recall that you are a teacher yourself. So, let me ask you this: would you ever go into a classroom and tell your students word for word what Tim's book says, then walk away and tell them to come back in a couple of weeks when they've learned that? How many would you expect to ever see again?
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Re: Tim ferris method

Postby lusan » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:03 pm

reineke wrote:
I'm not a native speaker or an expert but I like to poke my nose into these things. I believe Mercutio translated the sentences correctly.

.


I guess I had too much Polish lately. You are correct. Do widzenia!
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby s_allard » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:28 pm

I really don't see the point of arguing something that I have covered extensively. Tim Ferris does not have a language learning school and has not published a language learning course. He offers tips and insights for INDEPENDENT language learners. He draws heavily on the work of people like Benny Lewis and Gabriel Wyner. And he has dabbled in many languages himself. If somebody tells me that they want to learn Spanish fast on their own, I would certainly recommend taking some suggestions from Tim Ferris. I would also suggest looking at various courses and websites to see what they like. I would even recommend trying Michel Thomas if they don't mind the Polish-accented Spanish. Or they don't want to learn on their own, they could register for a class at a local school. What's the problem?
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby reineke » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:31 pm

Funny thing, I agree with many of Tim Ferris's ideas about language learning. I also like Antonio Graceffo's articles. The two should have a public discussion about language learning and body building.

Tim Ferris's approach to learning the basics is meant to enable the learner to function (and learn) independently and fast. The approach is incompatible with mind-numbing drills to master the basic "kernel" and the idea that one needs expensive tutors to achieve results. He certainly would have balked at the recent talk about "MONEY" (emphasis not mine), "lots of money" and $190 Skype sessions in connection with obtaining a B1 certificate.

From Tim Ferris's blog:

12 Rules for Learning Foreign Languages in Record Time — The Only Post You’ll Ever Need

#1 – Learn the right words, the right way.

#2 – Learn cognates: your friend in every single language

#3 – Interact in your language daily without traveling.

"Living abroad and being immersed is not the same thing. If you need to hear and use a language consistently to be immersed, can’t virtual immersion be just as effective? Of course. Technology makes it possible for immersion to come to you, and you don’t even have to buy a plane ticket."

Buy your favorite TV series dubbed in the target language, or "get a local equivalent by seeing what’s on the top charts".
Skype, My Language Exchange and Interpals are cited as possible options.

"Grammar can be learned with writing exercises in a class of 20, whereas “conversation” cannot be learned in anything but a realistic one-on-one environment where your brain is forced to adapt to normal speed and adopt coping mechanisms such as delaying tactics (“in other words,” “let me think for a second,” etc.)."

#4 – Skype today for daily spoken practice.

#5 – "Save your money. The best resources are free".
"Other than paying for the undivided attention of a native speaker, I don’t see why you’d need to spend hundreds of dollars on anything in language learning."
#6 – Realize that adults are actually better language learners than kids.
#7 – Expand your vocabulary with mnemonics.
You can come up with the mnemonic yourself, but a wonderful (and free) resource that I highly recommend is memrise.com.
....
premium content

"Why Language Classes Don't Work"

1. Teachers are viewed as saviors when materials are actually the determining factor.

Teachers are merely conduits for the material and sequencing.

By analogy, it is better to have a decent cook with excellent easy-to-follow recipe than a great cook with terrible recipe. It is the material that will restrict or elevate the teacher

Judge materials before you judge teachers, and no matter what, do not begin with classes or texts that solely use the target language (e.g., Spanish textbooks in Spanish). This approach reflects a school’s laziness and willingness to hire monolingual teachers, not the result of their search for the ideal method.

2. Classes move as slowly as the slowest student.

3. Conversation can be learned but not taught.

Somewhat like riding a bike, though unfortunately not as permanent, language fluency is more dependent on practicing the right things than learning the right things. The rules (grammar) can be learned through materials and classes, but the necessary tools (vocabulary and idiomatic usage) will come from independent study and practice in a native environment.

Separate grammar from conversation practice. I recommend choosing one school for grammar and several native books or comics to identify sticking points, which are then discussed in one-one-one language exchanges, where your partner provides examples of usage and does not explain rules.

4. Teachers are often prescriptive instead of descriptive.

Many teachers take it upon themselves to be arbiters of taste and linguistic conservationists, refusing to explain slang and insisting on correct but essentially unused grammatical constructions (e.g., “with whom were you speaking?” versus “who were you speaking to?”).

To avoid those who act as defenders of language purity, it is often easier to target 20-30-year old teachers and those who are good at teaching inductively (providing examples to explain principles). Ask them to explain a few common colloquial grammatical constructions before signing up.

In conclusion—the learner is the problem (what?)

The above sins certainly inhibit the speed of learning, but the principal problem is the learner his or herself, who—more often than not—uses classes as a substitute for, and not supplement to, real ego-crushing interaction.

Classes are easily used to infinitely postpone making the thousands of mistakes necessary to achieve fluency. In boxing, they say “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.” Well, in language learning, we could just as easily say that “everyone has the perfect conversation in mind until they speak to a real native.”

Don’t waste time on more than learning more than a handful of conjugations for primarily first-person singular (I) and second-person singular (you) in the past, present, and future tenses, along with common phrases that illustrate them. Throw in a few auxilaries (to want to V, to need to V, to like to V, etc.) and jump on a plane before learning any more of what you’ll just need to relearn anyway. Even after you land, you do not need more than two months of classes in-country, and remember that, like training wheels, the goal is get off of them as quickly as possible.

Don’t go to classes because you have no social network outside of class, or because you want the illusion of progress with a coddling teacher who understands your Tarzan attempts at her language. If you are taking classes because they are enjoyable, fine, but understand that you are better off spending time elsewhere."


http://fourhourworkweek.com/2008/09/22/why-language-classes-dont-work-how-to-cut-classes-and-double-your-learning-rate-plus-madrid-update/
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby Cainntear » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:12 pm

reineke wrote:1. Teachers are viewed as saviors when materials are actually the determining factor.

Teachers are merely conduits for the material and sequencing.

By analogy, it is better to have a decent cook with excellent easy-to-follow recipe than a great cook with terrible recipe. It is the material that will restrict or elevate the teacher

Judge materials before you judge teachers, and no matter what, do not begin with classes or texts that solely use the target language (e.g., Spanish textbooks in Spanish). This approach reflects a school’s laziness and willingness to hire monolingual teachers, not the result of their search for the ideal method.

I think that's too negative a view of teachers. Yes, lots are like that, but in some cases, the teacher is the material.

But the most important job of the teacher cannot be done by a random untrained conversation partner or a book: identifying and diagnosing misunderstandings, weaknesses and errors. Granted, you won't get that if the class is too big, but that's a different issue.

At the very least, a reasonably good teacher will help build up your reasoning and thought processes.

Somewhat like riding a bike, though unfortunately not as permanent, language fluency is more dependent on practicing the right things than learning the right things. The rules (grammar) can be learned through materials and classes, but the necessary tools (vocabulary and idiomatic usage) will come from independent study and practice in a native environment.

How do you know what the "right things" are? The learner is clearly a non-expert. As for the second sentence, it's utterly nonsensical. What can be learned from independent study that can't be learned from guided study (i.e. classes)? And what can you study from if what you're studying can't be learned from materials?

Don’t waste time on more than learning more than a handful of conjugations for primarily first-person singular (I) and second-person singular (you) in the past, present, and future tenses, along with common phrases that illustrate them.

I don't think that's a waste of time at all. First up, you may well find yourself speaking to more than one person at a time. Or maybe you're travelling with someone else. And "he said..." is always useful.
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby s_allard » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:14 pm

reineke wrote:...
Tim Ferris's approach to learning the basics is meant to enable the learner to function (and learn) independently and fast. The approach is incompatible with mind-numbing drills to master the basic "kernel" and the idea that one needs expensive tutors to achieve results. He certainly would have balked at the recent talk about "MONEY" (emphasis not mine), "lots of money" and $190 Skype sessions in connection with obtaining a B1 certificate.
...

Tim Ferris gives good advice for the independent language learner. Now let's now see how Tim Ferris went about learning enough Tagalog in 3-4 to give an interview in Tagalog on a local television station. Did Tim Ferris spend three days on his couch learning Tagalog with the so-called Tim Ferris method? If I may quote myself from a previous post, here is what Tim Ferris did:

1 - enlist the services of a highly experienced teacher
2 - live with a host family in an immersion setting
3 - focus on the most common components of the language - the bare essentials
4 - work with a memory expert
5 - focus on conversation strategies
6 - focus on the specific requirements of the interview


Suppose we had to pay for these services, how much would we expect to pay for 1) 3 days of coaching by a tenured professor of Tagalog, 2) live with a host family for three days including language practice and 3) consult with a memory expert.

If you wanted my services for three full days, I would charge you at least 1200 USD. Off the top of my head: the host family: 400 USD and the memory expert: 200 USD. Total around 1800 USD. I don't think Tim Ferris paid full price because he probably convinced people to do things for the publicity but if any of us tried this, we would probably have to pay.

Whatever price Tim Ferris ended up paying is not that important. What is important is that he did what he had to do to learn what he wanted in 3-4 days. Had he wanted to learn Tagalog in three months, it would have been a different story.

As was pointed out in the other thread on going to B1 in two months you can attempt to learn a language to B1 on your own - using Tim Ferris's tips. I put the probability of success at around 25%. Not good.
Or, work on your own with a good tutor that you must pay. The estimated success rate is around 80%. Very good.
Or with this super-duper teacher who charges around 190 euros an hour for 30 hours and sort of takes over your life for two months. The historical success rate is 97%. Fantastic.

So, you have a choice. You choose according to your needs and MONEY. I don't think Tim Ferris would disagree with these options. After all, isn't this exactly what he did?
Last edited by s_allard on Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby tastyonions » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:08 pm

What I really wonder is if Tim Ferris can do anything in his target languages other than promote himself.
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby Cainntear » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:00 am

s_allard wrote:. Did Tim Ferris spend three days on his couch learning Tagalog with the so-called Tim Ferris method?

That is not the question. The question is "Did Tim Ferris spend three days learning Tagalog with the method described in his book?"

Suppose we had to pay for these services, how much would we expect to pay for 1) 3 days of coaching by a tenured professor of Tagalog, 2) live with a host family for three days including language practice and 3) consult with a memory expert.

If you wanted my services for three full days, I would charge you at least 1200 USD. Off the top of my head: the host family: 400 USD and the memory expert: 200 USD. Total around 1800 USD. I don't think Tim Ferris paid full price because he probably convinced people to do things for the publicity but if any of us tried this, we would probably have to pay.

Whatever price Tim Ferris ended up paying is not that important. What is important is that he did what he had to do to learn what he wanted in 3-4 days. Had he wanted to learn Tagalog in three months, it would have been a different story.

Sorry, but Ferris was publicising his book, and given the emphasis he places on learning being free, and not having to spend thousands of pounds, he's quite simply not following his own published advice, and you cannot replicate his results by replicating his published method.

Say for example I published a book called Cainntear's Cool Catalogue of Language Learning Loquaciousness, hired the world's best language teacher to teach me Korean, then flew out to Seoul and said "See? I can talk on TV and radio, therefore everyone should buy my book!" that would be a complete non sequitur, and bordering on misleading claims.

That's what I'm objecting to, and you're just avoiding the issue.
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby s_allard » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:17 am

Really, I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't want to entertain a silly and spurious argument over a minor issue. There is hardly anything called a Tim Ferris language learning method akin to the Michel Thomas method. There is no book, no CDs, no tapes, no school, no dedicated language learning website, no recordings of Tim teaching a language. As was amply demonstrated here, Tim Ferris has simply published some learning advice in the form of a series of tips for learning a language quickly to a very basic level. Generally speaking, Tim Ferris specializes in learning and accomplishing things very quickly, whether it's losing weight, learning how to swim, becoming a gymnast, making money, etc. He is what I would call a lifestyle guru and a showman in that great American tradition. If you go to his blog, you see that it is full of interviews with famous and successful people, including of course our Benny Lewis of Fluent in three months fame.

http://fourhourworkweek.com/blog/

His approach to language learning is just another example of his general approach to acquiring a new skill quickly. The general pattern I see is laser focus, concentrate on the essentials, use the best tools, total discipline and intensive practice. This is what he demonstrates so well in his Tagalog experiment.

Tim Ferris is not a Michel Thomas and doesn't claim to be. He doesn't have a line of old recordings attempting to teach languages in a funny accent. He's a good-looking, fun-loving hunk with his own hair and a healthy entrepreneurial spirit.
Last edited by s_allard on Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Ferris method

Postby Marah » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:12 pm

He may not have the credentials of being a polyglot but his advice seems pretty sound to me.

It should be noted that his advice is targeted towards a specific kind of language learners: unexperienced, seeking to reach a conversational level ASAP

Obviously not everyone here falls in that category. Many of us prefer to take more time to learn languages because we want to reach a high level. We often aim for a native-like level but we should bear in mind that it's not everyone's goal.

I used to criticize Benny Lewis a bit because it seemed like he wanted to have his cake and eat it too but it wasn't fair. When I was a less experienced language learner he definitely inspired me to tackle "hard" languages like Mandarin or Arabic.

His advice is not targeted to people like me most of the time but I'm still occasionaly inspired by what he does.
I'm not a fan of trying to learn as much as you can in a few days like Tim Ferris or a few months like Benny Lewis but all things considered what they're doing is pretty cool and I can use their experiences to add a few things to my language routine/method.
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