How far back can you read?

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DaveBee
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Re: How far back can you read?

Postby DaveBee » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:22 am

Xmmm wrote:
Xenops wrote:When trying to read Spenser's The Faerie Queene, I felt that Shakespeare was light-reading in comparison.


Spenser was an obscurantist, though. He's intentionally being hard to understand.

Gene Wolfe nowadays tries something similar. How many native English speakers know what these Gene Wolfe favorites mean off the tops of their heads?

    blazon
    oubliette
    drachm
    baldric
    gamboge
    cerise
    lazaret
    doxy
    destrier

Shakespeare occasionally used difficult words because they rhymed well or scanned well, or thought they would sound cool when the actor said the whole line. He didn't deliberately pick obscure words to "flummox" the audience ... ditto Chaucer.
Hmm.

Blazon?
oubliette - very small one man cell
drachm - unit of measurement?
baldric - some kind of armour/sword harness?
gambodge ?
cerise - colour
lazaret - part of a ship?
doxy - prostitute?
destrier - knight's horse.
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Iversen
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Re: How far back can you read?

Postby Iversen » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:28 pm

There is one aspect more of the question, namely whether you could read the old texts as they actually were written. And it is not only a question of changes in the alphabets. I can read Latin (though not without some lookups), but inscriptions on graves etc. are so stock full of abbreviations that reading the stuff sometimes feels more like riddle solving than as free reading. Any saga in Old Norse you are likely to see will also be changed into a standard orthography - and in the Old French writings you will often find that dialectal traits have been edited away. For the scholar this is irritating (bordering on sacrilege), but for struggling learners it is probably a good thing.

As it is I can spell my way through almost all the Romance languages back to Latin, including the oldest versions from around 800 (give or take 100 years), and French is probably the one that has changed the most. But even the Strasbourg oaths from 842 are legible, although they like like the missing link between Vulgar Latin and 'real' French. The one language that may be problematic is Romanian, where I long ago found and studied a text from somewhere around 1521. I have forgotten the details, but remember that the thing is was almost illegible to me - and probably most Romanians too. EDIT: now I have reread it, and it has not become easier in the meantime.

The old Germanic languages except Old Norse are slightly harder, but not so much that they have become totally opaque. This also covers my experiences with Gothic. But after several bouts of Beowulf wrestling I can spell my way through it - well enough to see how dubious some of the published translations are. 'The Perl' is just about the limit where I can read freely - skipping some unknown words along the way.

Old versions of the Slavic languages are beyond me, and as for older versions of Greek I can understand some words here and there, but not read them. Some day I may find time to learn something about these phases of the Greek languages, but so far I'm just satisfied that I can read non-fiction non-newspaper Dhimotiki.

"oubliette - very small one man cell"
: It was even worse. I recently watched a documentary about Warwick castle, and there the cell was at the bottom of a shaft leading up to the toilet seats, and from other sources I vaguely remember that food for the unlucky inmates wasn't provided. In at least one other case there was not even a stair down to the bottom of the pit so if you were lucky you would break your neck at the arrival.
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Re: How far back can you read?

Postby tarvos » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:53 pm

Drachm I would expect to be a kind of coin, like used before in Greece.
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Re: How far back can you read?

Postby vonPeterhof » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:35 pm

Iversen wrote:There is one aspect more of the question, namely whether you could read the old texts as they actually were written. And it is not only a question of changes in the alphabets.
Oh yes, so much this. I briefly touched upon this with respect to modern Japanese in my earlier post, but the issue with Classical Japanese is on a whole other level. Even if you've got a good enough grasp on Middle Japanese grammar, know all about the pre-reform orthography and recognize all the unsimplified Chinese characters, with actual original texts there's no escaping cursive scripts and especially hentaigana. Basically, any syllable can be written in a number of ways even without Chinese characters, and all those different ways may end up looking awfully similar to each other in various authors' handwritings. This is what it looks like (from this thread).

While the cursive issue isn't quite as pronounced in older Cyrillic writing, especially outside of chancery documents, the radically different fonts and all the ligatures and abbreviations make it pretty difficult to read (not to mention the difficulties in parsing the texts - don't take word spacing and punctuation marks for granted!). I did also try learning the Glagolitic script when learning Old Church Slavonic and I do recognize the letters in my Anki deck perfectly, but even the mildest variations in fonts trip me up, and the default Glagolitic font that shows up on my computer appears to diverge quite a bit from the one most common in actual original texts.
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tarvos
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Re: How far back can you read?

Postby tarvos » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:57 pm

As far back as the beginning of the book...
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