Armando and Hebrew, or What Does It Take to Acquire Language?

[Finny]

This PDF from Krashen has always been one of my favorite reads on input-focused adult language acquisition. I figured it was worth sharing for anyone who hasn't come across it yet. Here's an excerpt...

A front-page article in the Los Angeles Times (Silverstein, 1999) described the case of Armando, a 29-year-old immigrant from Mexico who has lived in the United States for 12 years. Armando, who attended school in Mexico up to grade nine, has worked in an Israeli restaurant in Los Angeles nearly the entire time he has lived in the United States. While Armando speaks English quite well, he says he speaks Hebrew better.

Silverstein provides some description of how Armando did it: "He learned by observing and listening to co-workers and friends," through interaction and conversation, occasionally asking for the meanings of unknown words. Silverstein also provides some information on how good Armando is in Hebrew, quoting the "patriarch" of the family-owned restaurant, who claims that Armando "speaks Hebrew like an Israeli" (p. 1).

...

Armando told me that he had never learned to read Hebrew, never studied Hebrew grammar, had no idea of what the rules of Hebrew grammar were, and certainly did not think about grammar when speaking. He said that he received about five corrections a day, but none of these were aimed at grammar; it was all vocabulary.

...

The measure used to evaluate Armando's Hebrew was quite crude, but ecologically fairly valid. Native speakers of Hebrew regard him as a fluent, comfortable speaker of Hebrew, and two of the four judges thought he spoke Hebrew like someone born in Israel.

[YtownPolyglot]

Armando may be the exception rather than the rule. I suspect that we tend to be more likely to correct foreigners' vocabulary mistakes than their grammar mistakes, all things being equal. Moreover, Armando has been working in the Israeli restaurant for close to twelve years and making some active effort to learn. What would he sound like if he had been studying a bit more formally for close to twelve years?

[Finny]

It's possible he'd have learned much faster with formal studying, that very few people can learn the way he did, etc. I've always found the story inspiring, however, as an example of how many ways there are to learn a language well as an adult.

I remember an AJATT post where he surmised that an effective way to learn an L2 as an adult could be to basically "adopt yourself" to a kind and patient native speaker and follow her around her daily life all day long; the idea was that you'd learn to speak and understand naturally by shadowing an actual human being. This, to me, is a validation of his idea, challenges notwithstanding.

[Olekander]

Some cut away to the guy speaking with some of the restaurant goers would make an article like that a whole lot more accessible for debate amongst "scholars". If a newspaper publishes something like that willy-nilly it's a bit like "ugh" here we go again sensationalism.

HAVING SAID THAT. I don't doubt that the guy has got his head screwed on and really enjoyed learning the language and speaks it fluently now, but we can't have a scholarly debate without some point of reference.

I guess there article is 17 years old though. ?

[YtownPolyglot]

Re: Armando and Hebrew, or What Does It Take to Acquire Language?

Quote Olekander

Post by Olekander » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:31 am

Some cut away to the guy speaking with some of the restaurant goers would make an article like that a whole lot more accessible for debate amongst "scholars". If a newspaper publishes something like that willy-nilly it's a bit like "ugh" here we go again sensationalism.

HAVING SAID THAT. I don't doubt that the guy has got his head screwed on and really enjoyed learning the language and speaks it fluently now, but we can't have a scholarly debate without some point of reference.

I guess there article is 17 years old though. ?

So what we have here is a story written by a person who is not a language person for people who are not language people. Again.

[reineke]

Re: Armando and Hebrew, or What Does It Take to Acquire Language?

Quote Olekander

Post by Olekander » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:31 am

Some cut away to the guy speaking with some of the restaurant goers would make an article like that a whole lot more accessible for debate amongst "scholars". If a newspaper publishes something like that willy-nilly it's a bit like "ugh" here we go again sensationalism.

HAVING SAID THAT. I don't doubt that the guy has got his head screwed on and really enjoyed learning the language and speaks it fluently now, but we can't have a scholarly debate without some point of reference.

I guess there article is 17 years old though. ?

So what we have here is a story written by a person who is not a language person for people who are not language people. Again.

Here is the original article.

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/dec/08/news/mn-41620

"Case histories"

"Are Case Histories Scientific?
In recent years, there has been an emphasis on controlled experimental studies, and a deemphasis
of other forms of inquiry. What about case histories? My view is that case
histories can be valid forms of scientific research."

http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/skrashen_case_histories.pdf

[s_allard]

Suppose you get a job in a Chinese restaurant where all your co-workers speak only Cantonese Chinese and some English. After twelve years of this, how well will you speak Cantonese? Most likely, it will vary according to the effort you make and the kind of job you have. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up speaking quite well.

[YtownPolyglot]

Case histories can be a valid form of scientific research, but I would err on the side of caution. I suspect that Armando is a great language learner and that his coworkers were at least as helpful as the average coworkers would be. It sounds like certain parts of the situation would all have to line up in the right way. In other words, I am not recommending taking a job in a Chinese restaurant as a good way to learn Cantonese or Mandarin.

[s_allard]

Case histories can be a valid form of scientific research, but I would err on the side of caution. I suspect that Armando is a great language learner and that his coworkers were at least as helpful as the average coworkers would be. It sounds like certain parts of the situation would all have to line up in the right way. In other words, I am not recommending taking a job in a Chinese restaurant as a good way to learn Cantonese or Mandarin.

I think that Krashen's original intent was to demonstrate that adults can learn foreign languages well without using the typical methods used in classrooms at the time. And I think he was quite right. While I agree that learning Cantonese or Mandarin is not a simple as getting a job in a Chinese restaurant, I would think that, combined with other things (e.g. class, tutoring, helpful co-workers, etc) actually working in an environment where the language is spoken is a fantastic learning opportunity.

[reineke]

Krashen writes a lot about language acquisition. A lot of smart people disagree with Krashen. It hurts one's arguments, however, to cite Krashen if one rather vociferously advocates skill building, error correction and conscious learning of the target language. It is just as counterproductive to downplay the significance of Krashen's language acquisition theory by limiting it to classroom methodologies (or Chinese restaurants).

"Current theory distinguishes two very different ways of developing ability in another language:

"The Comprehension Hypothesis says that we acquire (not learn) language when we understand messages, oral and written. When we develop linguistic competence in this way, our goal is usually not to acquire language but to understand the message. The development of language competence is a by-product.

"The Skill-Building Hypothesis says that we first learn rules consciously and then practice them in output until they become “automatic”: In other words, consciously learned knowledge becomes “acquired” knowledge. When we develop linguistic competence in this way, our goal is to get better at the language."

Forms of Skill-Building

Deductive learning (not acquisition) occurs when the learner (not acquirer) is given the rule by a teacher or learns about it through reading a grammar, and the learner then practices the rule in output.

Inductive learning happens when the learner (not acquirer) discovers the rule. This can happen when the learner says or writes something and makes a mistake, which is corrected. The learner then changes his or her version of his conscious rule. This is termed output plus correction.

Several kinds of evidence, however, show that Skill-Building at best plays only a small and peripheral role: we can acquire language without it, the means needed for Skill-Building (output, correction) are scarce, and the rules to be learned are very complex.

In previous publications, I have presented evidence that grammar, vocabulary, spelling, phonemic awareness, phonics, and knowledge of text structure can be acquired and improved without explicit instruction or skill-building of any kind, as well as evidence that the source of competence in these areas is aural and written comprehensible input, with, of course, spelling, phonemic awareness, phonics, and text structure coming from reading.

In Krashen (2007), I described the case of Armando, an immigrant to the US from Mexico who worked in an Israeli restaurant in Los Angeles. Armando not only acquired English, but also acquired Hebrew, the language used in the restaurant. Armando was not particularly interested in going to Israel or becoming Jewish; his acquisition of Hebrew was a result of his friendly relationship with the family who owned the restaurant and the customers. Native speakers who heard a recording of Armando in conversation rated his Hebrew as at least very good; one judge thought Armando was a native speaker of Hebrew. Armando told me that he had never studied Hebrew grammar, did not think about grammatical rules when using Hebrew, and received correction only on vocabulary."

http://www.focalskills.info/articles/seekingjustification.pdf