Has anyone learnt a language well without trying to learn it?

[Φιλόσοφος]

In order to learn a language one needs not theorize and wonder why and how, but simply to pick up books that interest you and read them with the aid of a dictionary. It doesn't take that many of them either to achieve a solid foundation.

I learned English that way. Didn't harm me. In fact, even today, what I'm reading at the time influences my writing in both English and Spanish; it seems to improve markedly in the company of Mary Anne Evans and Nicolás Gómez Dávila.

And watching TV series is a waste of time unless you already know the language being used.

[Serpent]

Ahh it's turned into the good old debate now
Reading is great, but you need to hear the language and know how it's pronounced.
TV is not useless if it's comprehensible input. In a related language you can watch TV from the beginning. (and TV varies a lot - there's highbrow content like historical dramas too, though they're generally too difficult as a starting point)

[s_allard]

This doesn't have to be a repeat of the old debate. There doesn't have to be a conflict between input and explicit or formal study. As has been pointed out many times, it's all about finding really what works for you and your goals. I'm great believer in formal study because I believe it can accelerate the learning process considerably. I even believe in classes, something that is anathema to many people here. But I don't believe that this is always superior to watching endless series on TV with subtitles. The question is more about learning from the various experiences and trying things oneself.

[iguanamon]

As one who does consume media in my languages, I can explain a bit why I do it and what I get out of it, but first, some background. The only language I am exposed to on a daily basis where I live is Spanish. My Portuguese is primarily experienced electronically. Reading, listening, speaking and writing are all electronic. Ladino is heavily skewed towards reading with some listening semi-regularly. My Haitian Creole is used occasionally to speak, more regularly to read and I am still working on my listening.

I have traveled extensively in Spain and Latin America, Portugal and Brazil. I have yet to visit Haiti but have spoken a lot of Haitian Creole in Miami and New Orleans.

I watch a lot of series in Spanish and Portuguese, and listen to a lot of audio not only to maintain what I have learned and keep my listening skills honed but to experience a chunk of my life through these languages. I also write about this in my log quite a bit. Since I don't live in the Lusophone or the Spanish-speaking world it also helps me to experience and learn about the cultures of the peoples who speak these languages. In short, I enjoy it. A learner's purpose in consumption of native media is not always to better their language skills but also because they derive pleasure from it. I have learned a lot about Brazil and Brazilian society from watching indigenous comedy series and dramas. It sort of serves as a substitute (albeit a poor one) for actually living there, which I can't do right now.

While s_allard is correct that probably one hour long show has enough of the language for learning purposes, it doesn't provide the repetition in different contexts necessary for advancement without intensive study or artificial repetition. Watching, say a hundred hours of said TV series with active work and study can dramatically improve one's comprehension, vocabulary, listening skills and preparation for speaking, especially after (and even during) formal study of the language. I know. I've done it and it has indeed worked for me. When most of us are reading X amount of pages or watching/listening to X amount of native media, it's more about consolidation, enjoyment of an L2 culture, maintenance and slow improvement than it is about concentrating on actively learning vocabulary- after initially learning the language to a level where listening is much easier. In other words, not the first series. (Good grief, how I hate having to caveat myself nine ways to next Sunday. )

The reality for most of us here on the forum is that we don't live near a community of native-speakers of our TL's. Some of us intend to use our languages while traveling within an L2 country. Some have no intention to do so and want to concentrate on the media and culture of L2. I have a foot in both camps. Since most speakers of Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol live far from me and are elderly, without a country and flag of their own, it would take a specific effort and a lot of expense to meet them. I can spend less money and less effort and be immersed in Spanish, Portuguese and Haitian Creole. Such is the nature of having learned a dying language.

Once again, a learner can learn a lot from watching, reading and listening to native media. Some people have indeed learned a language in this way with minimal to perhaps no formal study. If input is combined with some formal study, in whatever proportion, that learning can be more efficient and thorough. There are a few extremes at either end of this spectrum with people who overwhelmingly concentrate on courses and people who overwhelmingly concentrate on native media. Most of us are somewhere in between. The most successful self-learners (success being defined in this context as being able to understand, speak and be understood in most contexts easily) tend to be those who are somewhere more toward the middle of this spectrum. Access to native-speakers is the one facet that is most difficult and requires more effort for most people.

[patrickwilken]

When most of us are reading X amount of pages or watching/listening to X amount of native media, it's more about consolidation, enjoyment of an L2 culture, maintenance and slow improvement than it is about concentrating on actively learning vocabulary- after initially learning the language to a level where listening is much easier.

For some years I have only watched shows I have wanted to out of enjoyment, and made no effort to learn unknown vocabulary or grammar. It took longer to reach this point with reading, simply because the books/newspapers I read have a more complex vocabulary/syntax, and the temptation when reading is to look up words you don't know (something I am too lazy too do for movies/TV/radio). But once you get there you consolidate the language, while just enjoying consuming it. In a related sense I also avoid certain foods as they are unhealthy, but I don't eat for health reasons - I eat something because I enjoy its taste.

How slow this really is I don't know. If you look at some studies English speakers add about 1000 words/year to their vocabulary throughout their school years, and gain about a third of their adult vocabulary after 16 years of age. Often when we talk about learning a language people talk in much shorter time periods, but to me that only mean that people are setting the bar much lower than something approaching true native ability (completely fine, but then probably so much input is also not needed).

[Jon]

My mom got to learn brazilian portuguese just by watching TV

[reineke]

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[DaveBee]

TV is still free because I found two French TV stations and am happy with one of them.

Can you please name them?

[Iversen]

This is a very long thread, and I can't react to everything in it. I would however add a few observations of my own. The first one is that there is such a thing as getting your ears (or rather your brain) tuned in to something which is just beyond your present grasp. If the input is very simple and repetitive then this can in principle happen even with languages that are far removed from the ones you already know. If the input is very complicated with few repetitions then it becomes harder to extract the comprehensible tidbits of information and organize them into a something resembling a language.

The big question is whether informal learning can happen without taking the motivation factor into consideration. I spoke in Novi Sad about some research results that showed that the effect of just meeting unknown words in texts or speech is minimal unless supported by some other kind of activity. The point is that for a person who is sufficiently eager to try extend his/her vocabulary that activity could be a deliberate and constant (and maybe even conscious!) attempt to understand those new words. This doesn't have to be done through Anki or wordlists, but these methods support the underlying attempt to add new words to your vocabulary. The mistake is just to read or listen for content and being content with getting the gist of your input. Yes, I know, the purpose of language is to transmit content, but that doesn't imply that you extend your capabilities unless you also take an interest in the linguistic medium itself. Even children do that because they instinctively know that they are in a learning process.

As for the dismissal of formal study as a way to speed up learning I would just say that the opposite claim (formal study being a waste of time or worse) is even more unfounded and undocumented, and I know from my own learning activities that formal study works. End of discussion (for me) until somebody proves that formal study isn't working, and explains exactly how I have deluded myself. I think the aversion against formal study comes from the study of persons who did nothing but formal study, which I of course also see as the wrong way to do things.

[Serpent]

Funny that you replied, I've been thinking of how Scandinavians pick up the neighbours' languages without intentional studying (speaking only of the passive skills here).