Has anyone learnt a language well without trying to learn it?

[patrickwilken]

Just to be clear I have watched more than 1200 hours, I have watched 1200 movies - so perhaps closer to 2000 hours. Whether this is trying or not depends on silly semantics. I simply switched my normal movie/tv watching from English to German. At this point I am not trying to learn German. I am just watching Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad or something else. Things add up over the years.

I have not been as successful in switching over only to German text sources, in part because written language is harder. After about 25000 pages (that's about 30 pages a day) I can read most things, but I am by no means fluent, I'll struggle with more literary texts, but this is hardly a fault of the method. I am not really sure what else you can do at this level. Classes or grammar are not my weaknesses in reading. It's really a matter of exposure, and it's obvious you need a lot to get really fluent.

However, this doesn't mean I have learnt German. I can speak it, but my fluency is not there yet (perhaps in my defence my 15-month-old daughter has slowed down my German learning significantly).

Recently I started weekly one-on-one tuition to work on amongst other things my pronunciation, where I meet with a journalist and read and talk over current newspaper articles or read some contemporary German literature.

I have no doubt you can learn a language (at least one that's as closely related as German to English) with predominately input if you have (say) 2000-3000 words, plus some basic knowledge of grammar, so you can parse sentences (and I am all for using a electronic dictionary until you are comfortable to read without one).

At some point it certainly becomes necessary/efficient to get feedback on you writing, pronunciation etc, but that happens in your L1 as well. Certainly students, whether at school or university, get lots of feedback on their writing in their native language, we shouldn't expect you can somehow avoid this with your second language. It's perhaps important to remember that it takes years and years to learn your native language to fluency. It's hardly like learning an L2 via input somehow short circuits this process.

[Finny]

On the off-chance that the OP hasn't ventured past this thread lately, I started one the other day referring to this case, which would also fit the bill for acquisition primarily through native media (in this case, speech).

A front-page article in the Los Angeles Times (Silverstein, 1999) described the case of Armando, a 29-year-old immigrant from Mexico who has lived in the United States for 12 years. Armando, who attended school in Mexico up to grade nine, has worked in an Israeli restaurant in Los Angeles nearly the entire time he has lived in the United States. While Armando speaks English quite well, he says he speaks Hebrew better.

Silverstein provides some description of how Armando did it: "He learned by observing and listening to co-workers and friends," through interaction and conversation, occasionally asking for the meanings of unknown words. Silverstein also provides some information on how good Armando is in Hebrew, quoting the "patriarch" of the family-owned restaurant, who claims that Armando "speaks Hebrew like an Israeli" (p. 1).

...

Armando told me that he had never learned to read Hebrew, never studied Hebrew grammar, had no idea of what the rules of Hebrew grammar were, and certainly did not think about grammar when speaking. He said that he received about five corrections a day, but none of these were aimed at grammar; it was all vocabulary.

...

The measure used to evaluate Armando's Hebrew was quite crude, but ecologically fairly valid. Native speakers of Hebrew regard him as a fluent, comfortable speaker of Hebrew, and two of the four judges thought he spoke Hebrew like someone born in Israel.

[Montmorency]

@Patrickwilken,

Patrick, some might argue, but I think also there can be little doubt that you have a massive advantage being there in the TL country, compared to someone who is not, but is also trying to expose themselves to a high level of similar native material. Not wishing to take anything away from your achievement, by the way. (I slightly envy your living in Berlin, by the way, not that I'm unhappy with where I live).

[patrickwilken]

@Patrickwilken,

Patrick, some might argue, but I think also there can be little doubt that you have a massive advantage being there in the TL country, compared to someone who is not, but is also trying to expose themselves to a high level of similar native material. Not wishing to take anything away from your achievement, by the way. (I slightly envy your living in Berlin, by the way, not that I'm unhappy with where I live).

Yes. Of course, it's a great advantage. I have input coming out my ears here. I am a member of the Berlin library system, which costs 10 euros/year which gives me access to essentially an infinite amount of books, movies, magazines etc. I get to talk German in the street whenever I go out. When I recently wanted a tutor to talk to about contemporary news and politics, I could get a personal tutor who also works as a professional journalist specializing in refugee issues who is earning a bit of money on the side working as a German tutor (although she only took me as a student because I was already at a high level from self learning).

Speaking here in Berlin made very little difference to my German until I was at a +B2 stage, simply because I didn't emphasize this side of things. Sure when shopping etc I speak German, but that hardly raises your L2 past a very rudimentary point. I have never worked here in German, which would of course be a great help.

Pretty much all my input comes from either books bought on Amazon (I like owning books, so have hardly ever used the library), reading e-versions of newspapers (Spiegel, die Zeit, Sueddeutsche Zeitung), and films/tv streamed either from Netflix/Amazon-Prime. Some of this would be easy enough to replicate outside of the German speaking world, other parts would require more creativity.

It's of course a massive advantage living here in Berlin, but you might be surprised how few non-Gemans take advantage of it, because it still requires you give up the advantages of your L1 for a significant period of time. I know two people (American and English) who are married to Germans and both have children about the same age as my daughter. Neither has made much effort to learn German despite living here for years (they certainly couldn't watch movies without subtitles, let alone read a newspaper). I find it shocking that they won't make the effort to learn the L1 of their own child.

[s_allard]

...
However, this doesn't mean I have learnt German. I can speak it, but my fluency is not there yet (perhaps in my defence my 15-month-old daughter has slowed down my German learning significantly).

Recently I started weekly one-on-one tuition to work on amongst other things my pronunciation, where I meet with a journalist and read and talk over current newspaper articles or read some contemporary German literature.

I have no doubt you can learn a language (at least one that's as closely related as German to English) with predominately input if you have (say) 2000-3000 words, plus some basic knowledge of grammar, so you can parse sentences (and I am all for using a electronic dictionary until you are comfortable to read without one).

At some point it certainly becomes necessary/efficient to get feedback on you writing, pronunciation etc, but that happens in your L1 as well. Certainly students, whether at school or university, get lots of feedback on their writing in their native language, we shouldn't expect you can somehow avoid this with your second language. It's perhaps important to remember that it takes years and years to learn your native language to fluency. It's hardly like learning an L2 via input somehow short circuits this process.

Let me repeat myself. The debate isn't about the importance of massive input or whether this is a method. The debate isn't about the importance of formal study. The debate is about learning a language well without trying to learn it. Here we have an example of someone who has watched 2000 hours of German, i.e. lots of massive input. This looks like trying to me but let's for sake of argument say that the viewing was for pure pleasure and there was no effort to learn the language. But we are also told that after all this:

However, this doesn't mean I have learnt German. I can speak it, but my fluency is not there yet ...

Next comes a program of one-on-one tuition. Finally the conclusion:

I have no doubt you can learn a language (at least one that's as closely related as German to English) with predominately input if you have (say) 2000-3000 words, plus some basic knowledge of grammar, so you can parse sentences (and I am all for using a electronic dictionary until you are comfortable to read without one).

Now, how do you get 2000-3000 words and a basic knowledge of grammar? And of course there is the dictionary.

Doesn't all this look like trying to learn German? If it isn't I don't know what is? Plus all this not-trying didn't seem to produce the desired results, i.e. learn a language well.

What for me would be learning a language without trying? Let's say I don't speak a word of French and have no interest in learning it but I love TV and out of curiosity I start looking at Buffy contre les vampires, the French adaptation of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. (There is the question of why in the world would I want to watch a series in French, but that's another matter). I watch and watch and watch repeatedly without any subtitles, not understanding a thing initially but enjoying the images. No classes, no study, no grammar, no flashcards, no tutoring, just pure input. After two years of this I end up speaking French well, as an unintended byproduct of all that watching. Although I'm not interested in French, I decide to have a go at the DALF B2 exam and ace it on first attempt.

If anybody believes this can happen, I have a bridge for sale, real cheap.

[Finny]

Pretty much all my input comes from either books bought on Amazon (I like owning books, so have hardly ever used the library), reading e-versions of newspapers (Spiegel, die Zeit, Sueddeutsche Zeitung), and films/tv streamed either from Netflix/Amazon-Prime. Some of this would be easy enough to replicate outside of the German speaking world, other parts would require more creativity.

This is pretty much how I learned Spanish without setting foot in a majority Spanish-speaking country (I live in the US), and it's also how I'm learning French. I called my big input triad books (of all ages, and probably 99% fiction), telenovelas (soap operas with the occasional movie), and radio (in my car and via my laptop). I got the idea from AJATT and the Antimoon folks, who were at least partially inspired by Krashen and others. Over the years, I've come across different folks online who have used the same approach to high levels of success.

With Spanish, I spent pretty much $0 on learning the language, because I was able to use the local library network to get 99% of the books I was interested in. With French, I estimate I'll spend around $100-200, simply because there are almost no French books in my library network. I could inter-library loan, but that takes a long time, and I don't like the extra steps it takes. Instead, I'm buying used books as needed online. TV is still free because I found two French TV stations and am happy with one of them. I don't use radio because there aren't any local French stations and if I'm at my computer, I'd rather use the TV.

It's of course a massive advantage living here in Berlin, but you might be surprised how few non-Gemans take advantage of it, because it still requires you give up the advantages of your L1 for a significant period of time. I know two people (American and English) who are married to Germans and both have children about the same age as my daughter. Neither has made much effort to learn German despite living here for years (they certainly couldn't watch movies without subtitles, let alone read a newspaper). I find it shocking that they won't make the effort to learn the L1 of their own child.

Well, to be fair, the children would have two L1s--English and German. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to communicate with the English parent. Even if their communication dynamic consists of the kids understanding English and speaking German and the parents understanding German and speaking English, both languages still count as an L1; they're just at different levels of ability. And if the English parents do understand German, that still counts as learning the L1; it's just not an expressive knowledge.

As one half of a bilingual parenting team where I speak the minority language (Spanish) while my wife speaks the majority (English), I'd like my wife to learn Spanish because I'd like us to be able to speak to each other as a family in Spanish, since that would strengthen the kids' Spanish while also making 3-way communication simpler (English would already work but would further reduce the input the kids get in the minority language, which is always a struggle when raising kids multilingually), but I understand why she doesn't; she doesn't need it to live in the majority society, and she doesn't need it to understand me or the kids since we're all capable of speaking the majority language. To her, that's more trouble than just putting up with the kids and I speaking Spanish to each other and English to her.

In the cases you describe, it would likely help the English parents to learn the majority language for community interactions, but if they truly needed to, they would, which suggests they're getting by well enough for their needs. And similarly, I imagine they can communicate with their kids well enough (whether through the kids speaking/understanding English or through the kids having passive English and their having passive German) to not need an expressive command of L2, or else they'd develop it.

I guess what I'm saying is that while I understand why the parents' lack of proficiency in German might seem surprising, there are many reasons why people do and don't learn languages, and with the responsibilities that come with adulthood (never mind parenthood...oh boy!), most people aren't going to do things as difficult as learning completely new ways of communication unless they find the old ways significantly limit their life opportunities.

[reineke]

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[garyb]

The question is: "Has anyone learnt a language well without trying to learn it?" More precisely: "Has anyone here learned a language to a high level without making any effort to actually study it, and only by consuming native media?"

These are completely different questions (EDIT: To be fair, the original poster asked both, so I'm not accusing you here). If you're consuming media with a deliberate aim of learning a language (for example patrickwilken's case), you're trying, full stop.

[desitrader]

I am almost beginning to think I shouldn't have asked the question.

[iguanamon]

I am almost beginning to think I shouldn't have asked the question.

The forum is full of landmines if you don't "caveat" yourself nine ways til next Sunday. I know, I've run into it myself and wished I hadn't posted something because of the crap that sometimes comes along with it. It's hard to do given the limited space for a forum topic. I know what you meant and wanted to know by reading your post, but, there are always people who will seize upon a semantic and run with it. Probably if you hadn't used the phrase "without trying to learn it, and maybe had written "Has anyone learned a language well using native materials alone?" it may have avoided the controversy and maybe not.

In your particular case, since your German is at a high level, and you are a native English-speaker, I think you could probably learn a lot of Norwegian without formally studying it. You'd learn a lot by watching native media, especially if you had Norwegian subtitles and English subtitles to help. I know that I've picked up a lot of Catalan with my Romance language knowledge in that way. If I made an effort to learn the basics I could actually learn the language. Having at least some help, like a grammar book or outline and maybe a very basic course would make this method more efficient. I don't believe you would learn Norwegian "well" (meaning to a high level) in this way, unless you were also producing it with native-speakers.