British Council: Languages for the Future

General discussion about learning languages
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Alphathon
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby Alphathon » Sat May 28, 2016 7:43 pm

limey75 wrote:
Brian wrote:
On the positive side, languages have now been introduced at primary school, but I believe they just cover basic vocabulary, numbers, colours etc.


Better than nothing I suppose, but they should really be trying to get them to make simple sentences and teach basic phrases. The earlier you can start learning a language the better, generally, we're told.
How much they teach is probably heavily dependent on the skills of the teacher. When I was in primary school the only option was French since that's all any of the teachers knew (or maybe were qualified to teach, I'm not sure). Shortly after I left though German was introduced as the deputy head had taken a course and could now teach it. I have no idea how competent she was though.

I can confirm that German was pretty strong when I went to school (also in Scotland - we seem to be a little overrepresented here), and in my school at least it was much stronger than Spanish and about equal with French (those were the only languages available). The fact that the town was twinned with one in Bavaria (which led to exchanges etc) probably helped though.

If I had to guess, the relative proximity of southern England to France probably has a huge effect on how strong it is there, which in turn will weaken other languages of similar prestige etc (e.g. German). It's almost certainly easier and quicker for many of them to visit Paris via the Channel Tunnel than it is for us to visit London, let alone Paris, so we don't really have that influence up here. (In fact, it probably takes about as long for a Londoner to reach Paris as it would take me to reach Edinburgh or Glasgow, let alone London.)
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby Montmorency » Sat May 28, 2016 10:03 pm

Elexi wrote:German is definitely on the decline in English schools and universities - less schools offer it at all compared to 30 years ago and a number of university departments have been closed to re-allocate funds elsewhere.

German (and languages in general) is perceived as a hard subject by students hoping to get an A or A* in their exams. As many Russell Group universities require three straight As for entry, and no longer do interviews to make individual offers, students are choosing subjects that increase their chances. In addition the connection between results tables and school status that came about under the previous Labour government mean that schools slowly drop subjects that do not improve their statistics.

In saying that, there are plenty of Germans in London - where I live in South East London appears at times to be a German colony - and there are plenty of adults learning German post school. The problem is in mainstream education, not in the desire of people to learn German.


There always used to be plenty of interest in German in adult evening classes where I live too (not London). I believe that the potential interest has been stifled by the ever increasing costs of classes, due to cuts in subsidies and then cutbacks in public spending generally. Very short-sighted policies all-round.
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby Montmorency » Sat May 28, 2016 10:23 pm

Ogrim wrote:
Brian wrote:
alexraasch wrote:
Brian wrote:However, overall numbers of pupils choosing to study a language are falling.

Is it completely voluntary to learn a foreign language in UK highschools? That would be surprising.


I can only speak for Scotland, which has a different education system to the rest of the UK.

Here, all pupils learn a language in the first two years of High School.

Thereafter, pupils are free to drop their foreign language. Sadly, many do.


In England learning a foreign language in school was voluntary until 2014, when compulsory language education was brought in for all children between seven and 11 years old. I don't know if it is the case also for Wales and Northern Ireland. Here is an article from the British Council about it, and this is an interesting op ed by Mark Herbert, head of schools programmes at the British Council.


I was a parent-governor in a state secondary school in the mid-1990s. At that time, it was compulsory to study at least one foreign language through a large part of the secondary school period. I think it may have become compulsory at one time to study two languages for at least part of that period. If I remember correctly, this restriction was lifted later on, possibly by the Blair government of 1997-2007.

Foreign language learning in primary schools is now compulsory? Hmm... seen it before (or something similar). It can't last. Not enough qualified teachers (how can there be, with reduced University language education?). And sooner or later it will be cut back due to financial constraints, if nothing else. School language-learning in the UK has always been a joke, one way or another. Only the script changes.
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby limey75 » Sun May 29, 2016 9:51 am

Montmorency wrote: School language-learning in the UK has always been a joke, one way or another. Only the script changes.


This made me think a bit. I don't believe I've met a single Brit who had a foreign language at school who was/became totally fluent in that language (if they didn't study it later at uni).

Whereas I can think of X number amount of Scandinavian, German and Dutch friends or acquantances who learned English to a near-native level just from school.

I did 5 years of French at school but now can't even say a single sentence in French. I learned more teaching myself German through private study for 3 months than I ever did during those 5 years.
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby Alphathon » Sun May 29, 2016 3:39 pm

limey75 wrote:
Montmorency wrote: School language-learning in the UK has always been a joke, one way or another. Only the script changes.


This made me think a bit. I don't believe I've met a single Brit who had a foreign language at school who was/became totally fluent in that language (if they didn't study it later at uni).

Whereas I can think of X number amount of Scandinavian, German and Dutch friends or acquantances who learned English to a near-native level just from school.

I did 5 years of French at school but now can't even say a single sentence in French. I learned more teaching myself German through private study for 3 months than I ever did during those 5 years.
The main difference there though is that they almost certainly didn't just learn it from school. While school may have been the only formal learning they did, they almost certainly had a massive amount of native input from English-language music, TV, films etc, not to mention the majority of the internet.

One guy on YouTube (Get Germanized) who makes German learners' material says that one of the main reasons he's so good at English is anime - while it is natively in Japanese it is far easier to get hold of English dubs/subs (whether they be official of fan-made) and he was already learning English at school so using them was an obvious step.

For an English speaker on the other hand you actually have to go looking for foreign-language content, it isn't just there.
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby limey75 » Sun May 29, 2016 3:42 pm

Some good points there, Alphathon, thanks.
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby Brian » Mon May 30, 2016 9:34 am

It would be interesting to hear a Dutch teenager speaking Italian after a few years of learning the language at school and where the school input was virtually the only source.
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The Guardian, 31.05.2016

Postby Montmorency » Tue May 31, 2016 2:37 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... om-scratch

"Schools say au revoir to languages, while universities proclaim Guten Tag
Universities are offering languages such as French and German from scratch to counteract the decline of modern foreign languages at A-level"


It’s summer term: season of exams, light evenings and – for many year 12s – university open days. With fashionable courses from psychology to sports science beckoning, how many applicants will resist their lure and choose those beleaguered Cinderella subjects, languages?

On current trends, few. The story of the decline of modern languages in UK universities is as familiar as the fact that Madame Marsaud was always dans la cuisine in the textbooks: the numbers taking modern foreign language degree courses fell 16% between 2007-08 and 2013-14.

The numbers stabilised last year, yet a new blow seems to land weekly: this month, the OCR exam board announced it is to discontinue GCSEs and A-levels in French, German and Spanish. The latest annual Language Trends report, meanwhile, found schools are not preparing for more GCSE or A-level language entries despite the new Ebacc – intended to see 90% of pupils take a suite of five core GCSEs including a language by 2020.

With school languages deep in the doldrums, and new initiatives, including primary school language study, yet to feed through, what can universities do to keep departments viable and the subjects alive? If students with language skills are no longer there, where can teaching the subject even begin?

One answer, it appears, is at the beginning. Though it’s difficult to detect in admissions statistics, university language courses are changing, with more opportunities for students to study a language from scratch. Ab initio courses, as they are termed, once the preserve of Russian, Chinese and Arabic, are now being extended to include more familiar languages: Spanish, sometimes French and especially German. In some universities, such courses are long established, but others are making new forays: Oxford offered beginners’ German for the first time this year (available in joint honours to students with an A-level in another language); King’s College London, went further and this year offered German from scratch with a range of subjects. Manchester has introduced French from scratch – plus the chance to add a language as a minor degree subject.

For Lauren Valentine, 19, completing the first year of a single honours French degree at Manchester, the university’s new “flexible honours” programme has allowed her to fulfil her dream of learning Spanish, foiled when her school split her year into two random language groups and she ended up with French. “I was always embarrassed on family holidays when all I could say was una cola lite,” she says. “I couldn’t do Spanish at sixth-form college either, and I didn’t have the confidence to apply for joint honours with Spanish ab inito because I thought it wouldn’t ever be as good as my French.

“We did a lot of intensive grammar in the first year, and I feel that my Spanish is now above A-level standard, though the vocab will take more time to bed in. The course has given me even more than I’d hoped, and I now want to go into translation or interpreting.”

The new Manchester programme, introduced this year and allowing students to take a “minor” in a range of subjects including languages, is designed to catch students who might not have considered languages, or perhaps lacked the confidence to apply to study them at degree level. While the university still demands at least one good language A-level for traditional joint honours language courses, the minor courses require no prior language experience. This year, 30 out of 53 students taking a minor chose a language, and the vast majority plan to carry on – with a few even switching to full joint honours.

The scheme allows students to “dip their toe in the subject” for a year without risk, says assistant undergraduate director, Joseph McGonagle, and if they do continue they can get a language on their degree certificate. “The feedback is brilliant – they are grabbing it with both hands.” The hope is to double the numbers this September, he says. “This is about rebuilding from a low base – or a different base. We can’t let the popularity of school languages decline and not address that at university level.”

Meanwhile at Southampton, another Russell Group institution with a languages focus, ab initio courses are longer established. As in most language departments, they have an equality function, ensuring linguists who were able to take only one language in the sixth form can still take a traditional joint honours language degree, according to professor of modern languages Vicky Wright. Roughly 10% of applications for a combined degree are from applicants with only one language, though it was almost a quarter this year for French and Spanish because Spanish – although growing in popularity – is still often not available in schools at A-level, and even French is now not always on offer.

George Hope, 22, took only French at A-level, despite German being available. But when the language bug struck he applied to take French with accelerated German ab initio at Southampton, and fell in love with the “orderly, structured” language, spending his gap year in Freiburg and reaching a level equal to his French.

At the moment, he believes, ab initio options are recognised only by those who are “looking at languages already, so it isn’t really helping revive languages. But it could, if you encourage people applying to university, and say have you thought about languages alongside your main subject?”

At Southampton and many universities, the traditional ab initio option combining a new language with a known one may not be converting those who haven’t considered languages, but it does help counteract the effect of declining school language teaching. The dual language A-level student is “an endangered species”, according to McGonagle but, says Wright, “against a national trend of steady decline, we are holding our own but not increasing”.

At Oxford, ab initio German introduced this year has proved popular, and nine students are signed up for September (compared with 70 who have German A-level). Beginner students are taught very intensively and therefore their numbers will, for now, be capped at 16, says Katrin Kohl, professor of German literature.

The new course, Kohl notes, has attracted students drawn to German in diverse ways: perhaps through an interest in the economy, through family connections, or after reading something influential.

Jocelyn Wyburd, chair of the university council of modern languages and director of the language centre at Cambridge, sees the expansion of ab initio as “universities grappling with a pipeline problem” – a “woeful” 48% of the GCSE cohort last year took at least one language.

A strong fight back by language departments, mainly through the Routes into Languages campaign, plus government initiatives, may ultimately see a turnround in language take-up in the UK. But for now, Wyburd says, universities are “reinventing their rules. Each department is devising its own pathways and constantly reviewing what are the non-negotiables.”

Can ab initio rescue languages? “It can. Will it? I don’t know – I’d love it to. But it’s not a panacea.”
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Re: The Guardian, 31.05.2016

Postby Elenia » Tue May 31, 2016 3:38 pm

Montmorency wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/may/31/schools-languages-universities-courses-from-scratch

"Schools say au revoir to languages, while universities proclaim Guten Tag
Universities are offering languages such as French and German from scratch to counteract the decline of modern foreign languages at A-level"


One answer, it appears, is at the beginning. Though it’s difficult to detect in admissions statistics, university language courses are changing, with more opportunities for students to study a language from scratch. Ab initio courses, as they are termed, once the preserve of Russian, Chinese and Arabic, are now being extended to include more familiar languages: Spanish, sometimes French and especially German.


This is familiar. My University offered ab initio German and Spanish (but French and Russian required prior qualification). Two of my friends studied German from scratch at university - something I wish I had known about. It was also possible to take beginner modules in German, Spanish and Catalan, although not in French or Russian. It's bad that languages are disappearing from the compulsory years, but the sad truth is that the universities are much better equipped and much more efficient than the majority of secondary schools and sixth forms/colleges.
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Re: British Council: Languages for the Future

Postby DaveBee » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:16 pm

Speech at the polyglot gathering: Which language is the most beneficial to learn?.

The suggestion @ 24m is: English, German, Spanish, French, Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Italian, Polish, Scandinavian, Balkan, Portuguese.
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