Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

[vonPeterhof]

Certain spoken forms usually look terrible in formal writing (ça, c'est…, for example).

Does this mean that PSG's "ici c'est Paris" slogan is more colloquial than I thought?

I think emk was talking about the whole phrase ça, c'est... not just c'est, which is simply the standard way of saying "it is/it's" (and unlike in English, the "contraction" is mandatory).

[Carmody]

Marah
That's not a rule we learn at school IME. .......That's just something you pick up by reading. But if their register is limited to the informal language I think these sentences would look weird to them.

To pick up the usage of those seven verbs is pretty sophisticated reading in my estimation.

So the rules are in fact followed, but acquired through intuitive uptake of a sort.

Fascinating.

Thank you.

ps: my wife asked why I am curious about the rules for these seven verbs and I was quick with an obvious answer. life is short; i don't want to learn what French don't learn. and of course my database has only limited storage capacity

[emk]

Marah
That's not a rule we learn at school IME. .......That's just something you pick up by reading. But if their register is limited to the informal language I think these sentences would look weird to them.

To pick up the usage of those seven verbs is pretty sophisticated reading in my estimation.

So the rules are in fact followed, but acquired through intuitive uptake of a sort.

Yeah, it's really not worth losing sleep over this kind of stuff until you already take for granted the fact that you can speak and write in French. You do seem like the sort of person who keeps their eyes open for this sort of detail, and that will serve you well someday, because it will teach you to read the words that are actually on the page, not the words that you expected to see. But for now, don't stress about it.

I mean, I knew the je ne sais quoi faire example in the article, and I've seen ne pouvoir without the pas as well. But that's simply because I've heard and read a lot of French, and because humans are hard-wired to imitate other humans. I could carry on a professional discussion in French (and I have), but I couldn't make a complete list of those 7 verbs without looking them up.

The things you do need to care about in the beginning are the things you see every day. One good way to identify those things is to start exposing yourself to real French early on, and to let that shape your list of priorities. You'll quickly notice that some lists of exceptions, such as the list of verbs that use être to form the passé composé, are actually pretty critical. But other rules can be ignored for a long time.

[Carmody]

Thanks emk.

Just for the record, in my earlier posts in this thread I referred to the Presidents Bush and their lack of care with the English language, as opposed to the French who, by all accounts, love their language dearly and respect it greatly. I believe you interpreted my comments as my being critical of their regional dialect. To the contrary, I truly love regional dialects greatly-the Texan, Virginian, and Georgian in particular and I should have written my comments with greater clarity.

During his Presidency, George W. Bush consistently struggled with speaking the American language and its syntax to the point quite literally of dyslexia. He clearly could have cared less as to how his sentences came out. Politics aside, many thought him truly dyslexic. But as he demonstrated, it didn't matter if he could speak the American language clearly, the American people could have cared less, and voted him in for yet a second time.

[Ani]

consistently struggled with speaking the American language and its syntax to the point quite literally of dyslexia.

Dyslexia relates to reading..

He clearly could have cared less as to how his sentences came out. Politics aside, many thought him truly dyslexic. But as he demonstrated, it didn't matter if he could speak the American language clearly, the American people could have cared less, and voted him in for yet a second time.

Couldn't.. dear goodness gracious couldn't care less

[Montmorency]

Thanks emk.

Just for the record, in my earlier posts in this thread I referred to the Presidents Bush and their lack of care with the English language, as opposed to the French who, by all accounts, love their language dearly and respect it greatly. I believe you interpreted my comments as my being critical of their regional dialect. To the contrary, I truly love regional dialects greatly-the Texan, Virginian, and Georgian in particular and I should have written my comments with greater clarity.

During his Presidency, George W. Bush consistently struggled with speaking the American language and its syntax to the point quite literally of dyslexia. He clearly could have cared less as to how his sentences came out. Politics aside, many thought him truly dyslexic. But as he demonstrated, it didn't matter if he could speak the American language clearly, the American people could have cared less, and voted him in for yet a second time.

You also referred to his father in similar vein, which surprised me. In contrast to his son, George H.W.Bush always seemed to me to be a typical WASP upper class patrician American of the old school, and if perhaps he didn't speak quite like Eleanor Roosevelt, he did not speak noticeably badly.

[galaxyrocker]

Thanks emk.

Just for the record, in my earlier posts in this thread I referred to the Presidents Bush and their lack of care with the English language, as opposed to the French who, by all accounts, love their language dearly and respect it greatly. I believe you interpreted my comments as my being critical of their regional dialect. To the contrary, I truly love regional dialects greatly-the Texan, Virginian, and Georgian in particular and I should have written my comments with greater clarity.

During his Presidency, George W. Bush consistently struggled with speaking the American language and its syntax to the point quite literally of dyslexia. He clearly could have cared less as to how his sentences came out. Politics aside, many thought him truly dyslexic. But as he demonstrated, it didn't matter if he could speak the American language clearly, the American people could have cared less, and voted him in for yet a second time.

No, he didn't speak the standard. There's a huge difference between speaking a language, which includes dialectal variants, and speaking the standard version of that language. Most people do not speak the standard, as it's not their native and a form they only speak in formal situations. And also one they must be explicitly taught in most cases.

Also, I love how you're ragging on other people not speaking the standard but say "could care less". It's couldn't in the standard, because obviously if you "could care less" you still care. (Just being pedantic because you are)

[Carmody]

I better climb back on my high horse and high tail it out of here....

[Marah]

I once had this debate on Unilang a few years back. I thought "I could care less" was stupid but as one of the members pointed out to me, there are arguments for "I could care less" as well... http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_vall ... might.html

[Carmody]

Just for the record, I realize now that I am quite illiterate compared with the rest of the people in this group. I did not know that when I started out with this thread but I know it now.

In fact, I have never even heard of the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (CGEL) book that emk mentions that he owns. Nor until this thread have I ever heard of the word descriptivist.

Lots to learn.......