Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

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AlexTG
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby AlexTG » Tue May 24, 2016 11:37 pm

s_allard wrote:The second point relates to emk's example of a vulgar explanation of why "fils de pute" is preferable to "fils à pute". Yes, "fils de pute" is the better of the two forms but this has nothing to do with the point of grammar explained by the Académie. I believe that emk has misunderstood the distinction between fils de pute and fils à pute. The Académie's instructions for the use of possessive à followed by a noun is basically the prescriptivist position, i.e. an earlier usage that allowed for "la voiture à Julie" has evolved and now the preferred form is with '"de" as in "la voiture de Julie". Familiar or popular usage still allows à + noun as in "la voiture à mon père".

s_allard seems to have gotten confused here. The vulgar explanation is not an explanation of why "fils de pute" is preferable. That is taken for granted. The point is that obviously you say "fils de pute", and therefore it's correct to use "de", not "à", for all possessives. This is a saying used by prescriptivist French people to justify their dislike of "à" as a possessive. The Académie on the other hand notes that "à" can be used as a possessive "dans un usage très familier".
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby s_allard » Wed May 25, 2016 2:58 am

AlexTG wrote:
s_allard wrote:The second point relates to emk's example of a vulgar explanation of why "fils de pute" is preferable to "fils à pute". Yes, "fils de pute" is the better of the two forms but this has nothing to do with the point of grammar explained by the Académie. I believe that emk has misunderstood the distinction between fils de pute and fils à pute. The Académie's instructions for the use of possessive à followed by a noun is basically the prescriptivist position, i.e. an earlier usage that allowed for "la voiture à Julie" has evolved and now the preferred form is with '"de" as in "la voiture de Julie". Familiar or popular usage still allows à + noun as in "la voiture à mon père".

s_allard seems to have gotten confused here. The vulgar explanation is not an explanation of why "fils de pute" is preferable. That is taken for granted. The point is that obviously you say "fils de pute", and therefore it's correct to use "de", not "à", for all possessives. This is a saying used by prescriptivist French people to justify their dislike of "à" as a possessive. The Académie on the other hand notes that "à" can be used as a possessive "dans un usage très familier".

I'm not sure why I'm confused. I'm not sure who is confused here. The prescriptive position is not that "de" should be used for all possessives. In fact "à" is the preferred form when used with pronouns as in C'est à moi or with verbs such as être and appartenir as in La voiture est à Julie or La voiture appartient à Julie. But here emk is tells us that fils de pute is preferred to fils à pute. But what I've tried to show is that they have different meanings. There is nothing to be prescriptivist about. One form is obvious because there is no other choice for that meaning. The other form is just as obvious for another meaning. The two forms have different uses. For example would a prescriptivist say "un fils de papa" instead of "un fils à papa"? Certainly not. Actually both could be used because they have totally different meanings. There is nothing confusing here.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby AlexTG » Wed May 25, 2016 6:22 am

s_allard wrote:I'm not sure why I'm confused. I'm not sure who is confused here. The prescriptive position is not that "de" should be used for all possessives. In fact "à" is the preferred form when used with pronouns as in C'est à moi or with verbs such as être and appartenir as in La voiture est à Julie or La voiture appartient à Julie. But here emk is tells us that fils de pute is preferred to fils à pute. But what I've tried to show is that they have different meanings. There is nothing to be prescriptivist about. One form is obvious because there is no other choice for that meaning. The other form is just as obvious for another meaning. The two forms have different uses. For example would a prescriptivist say "un fils de papa" instead of "un fils à papa"? Certainly not. Actually both could be used because they have totally different meanings. There is nothing confusing here.

You're bringing in completely unrelated grammar points. Obviously everyone accepts that "à" can be used for other purposes, no one is suggesting that "à" is not a French word. What we are talking about is « la voiture de Julie » vs « la voiture à Julie », in which case prescriptivists certainly prefer "de".

I accept I should have said "possessive between two nouns" in my previous post rather than just "possessive", to avoid confusion.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby s_allard » Wed May 25, 2016 11:32 am

AlexTG wrote:
s_allard wrote:I'm not sure why I'm confused. I'm not sure who is confused here. The prescriptive position is not that "de" should be used for all possessives. In fact "à" is the preferred form when used with pronouns as in C'est à moi or with verbs such as être and appartenir as in La voiture est à Julie or La voiture appartient à Julie. But here emk is tells us that fils de pute is preferred to fils à pute. But what I've tried to show is that they have different meanings. There is nothing to be prescriptivist about. One form is obvious because there is no other choice for that meaning. The other form is just as obvious for another meaning. The two forms have different uses. For example would a prescriptivist say "un fils de papa" instead of "un fils à papa"? Certainly not. Actually both could be used because they have totally different meanings. There is nothing confusing here.

You're bringing in completely unrelated grammar points. Obviously everyone accepts that "à" can be used for other purposes, no one is suggesting that "à" is not a French word. What we are talking about is « la voiture de Julie » vs « la voiture à Julie », in which case prescriptivists certainly prefer "de".

I accept I should have said "possessive between two nouns" in my previous post rather than just "possessive", to avoid confusion.

I don't want to turn this thread into a French grammar course but I think it would be instructive to see exactly what emk said:

Compare this to the "popular" (and extremely vulgar) version of this rule that I've heard from a number of French speakers: On dit « fils de pute », pas « fils à pute » "We say 'son de a wh***, not 'son à a wh***".


emk is not talking here about la "la voiture de Julie" vs "la voiture à Julie" where the two forms mean the same but one is considered the better of the two. He is talking about preferring "fils de pute" over "fils à pute". The problem is that the two do not mean the same thing. It's not as if the Académie chose "fils de pute" and the popular classes chose "fils à pute". Both forms are perfectly valid. I should point out in passing that Julie is a proper noun whereas pute is a common noun. Also, in emk's example there is no article, i.e. le or un. So I think "fils de pute" is probably being used as an insult.

If emk had used as examples "fils de Pierre" and "fils à Pierre", we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby emk » Wed May 25, 2016 1:43 pm

s_allard wrote:I don't want to turn this thread into a French grammar course but I think it would be instructive to see exactly what emk said:

Compare this to the "popular" (and extremely vulgar) version of this rule that I've heard from a number of French speakers: On dit « fils de pute », pas « fils à pute » "We say 'son de a wh***, not 'son à a wh***".


emk is not talking here about la "la voiture de Julie" vs "la voiture à Julie" where the two forms mean the same but one is considered the better of the two.

When I hear or see (European) French speakers use that charming phrase, they're specifically correcting the "à between two nouns indicating possession" usage occasionally seen in informal French speech. It's specifically the la voiture à Julie issue that's being corrected in every case that I'm aware of, as far as I can tell.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby s_allard » Wed May 25, 2016 2:18 pm

emk wrote:
s_allard wrote:I don't want to turn this thread into a French grammar course but I think it would be instructive to see exactly what emk said:

Compare this to the "popular" (and extremely vulgar) version of this rule that I've heard from a number of French speakers: On dit « fils de pute », pas « fils à pute » "We say 'son de a wh***, not 'son à a wh***".


emk is not talking here about la "la voiture de Julie" vs "la voiture à Julie" where the two forms mean the same but one is considered the better of the two.

When I hear or see (European) French speakers use that charming phrase, they're specifically correcting the "à between two nouns indicating possession" usage occasionally seen in informal French speech. It's specifically the la voiture à Julie issue that's being corrected in every case that I'm aware of, as far as I can tell.

Again I don't want to belabor this issue but it is illustrative of how one understands or does not understand the subtleties of a foreign language's grammar. The (European) French who says "fils de pute" is preferable to "fils à pute" is right if the intent is to call someone a son of a whore. If the intent is to call the person a son who likes whores, then the (European) French speaker will say "fils à pute(s)". Both forms are correct. It all depends on what one wants to say.

Why would that same (European) French person say "un fils à papa" and not "un fils de papa"? It's a similar problem. And then we have things like "un homme à femmes" which raises other subtleties. Despite all appearances, these have nothing to do with the "la voiture à Julie" question.

In Quebec French, a common insult is "un enfant de chienne", a direct translation of "a son of a bitch". It would never occur to anyone to even think of saying "un enfant à chienne". This latter has a totally different meaning and doesn't make sense here. As a matter of fact "enfant de chienne" is not about possession; it's not about the bitch owning a son, it's about the son being born of a bitch.

It would be interesting to see what other native speakers of French have to say about this question.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby Marah » Wed May 25, 2016 3:46 pm

I side with AlexTG and Emk. It's true that "fils à pute" has a different meaning but when people say "on dit "fils de pute" et pas "fils à putes"" it's pretty clear that they only mean to correct the "voiture de Julie" vs "voiture à Julie" issue. Anyway, I've never heard a native actually say "fils à putes" unless they were debating about this grammatical point.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby s_allard » Wed May 25, 2016 5:01 pm

Marah wrote:I side with AlexTG and Emk. It's true that "fils à pute" has a different meaning but when people say "on dit "fils de pute" et pas "fils à putes"" it's pretty clear that they only mean to correct the "voiture de Julie" vs "voiture à Julie" issue. Anyway, I've never heard a native actually say "fils à putes" unless they were debating about this grammatical point.

As a fan of French grammar I love to debate these issues. The starting point is that both forms "fils à pute(s)" and "fils de pute" are both currently valid forms in contemporary French. They mean different things. The person who says "On ne dit pas fils à pute, on dit fils de pute" is right when the reference is to the insult of the form "fils de pute". I am not convinced that the person is thinking of the "voiture à Julie" vs "voiture de Julie" example. And even if they are thinking of the latter examples, it remains that "fils à pute(s)" is perfectly good French. Sure, it's rarely used, compared to "fils de pute" which is a very common insult.

Let's do a Google on "fils à pute". Not many hits and most of the hits are comments on the correction of fils à pute to fils de pute. But here is an interesting little dialogue at:
http://danstonchat.com/755.html

- "DE" lisa... "DE" !!! On dit pas "un fils a pute" !!!
- Quoi que... Un fils à putes ça peut aussi marcher ! Si un ami à un fils qui se fait une pute tout les deux jours, je peux donc dire "oh Jean-Michel, t'as vraiment un fils à putes toi !"
...
- Si tu veux expliquer cette règle à un enfant utilise plutôt crotte à nez que fils à pute...

If emk had used crotte à nez, there wouldn't be any problem.

What about "bar à putes"? Nobody seems to say that this should be "bar de putes". The same goes for "motel à putes, bazar à putes". Are "cartes de putes" the same as "cartes à putes"?

Why is "homme à femmes" or "femme à hommes" not corrected to "hommes de femmes" or "femme d'hommes"?

I suggest someone explain why is "fils à papa" not corrected to "fils de papa"?

The fundamental answer is that we are talking about different things. On the other hand, la voiture de Julie and la voiture à Julie are identical objects with two descriptions, the standard one and the non-standard one.

All this may seem like minor points of grammar but they are the foundation for real mastery of the language. These are the very nuances that show how well one can use the language.
Last edited by s_allard on Wed May 25, 2016 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby Carmody » Wed May 25, 2016 5:30 pm

Well, I am learning lots and am grateful for everyone posting. Thank you.

But if i could get back to my OP for a minute re the use of ne pas…. I believe my question was greatly lacking in specificity, for which I apologize. Here goes with a second try.
• Yes, I understand there are the upper and lower registers.
• Yes, there is the classroom / textbook and the colloquial French.
• So to ask the question more specifically has the French person in the street ever heard of or does he act according to the rules of “the ne littéraire used with seven verbs" outlined at:

http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/ne ... form_3.htm

I don’t live in France so I have no basis of guessing the answer.

Again thanks.
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Re: Do the French follow their grammar rules ?

Postby Marah » Wed May 25, 2016 5:44 pm

That's not a rule we learn at school IME. The French person in the street who can adapt his/her register to literary contexts could intuitively write these sentences pretty easily. That's just something you pick up by reading.
But if their register is limited to the informal language I think these sentences would look weird to them.
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