Learn it fast, lose it fast

General discussion about learning languages
Finny
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby Finny » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:51 am

IronMike wrote:Interestingly, Finny, I also did a study for my masters on language relatedness/linguistic distance and its effects on learning an L3 related to your L2. I'd say your approach you outline above is good, but I would have some reservations about starting (from anew) two related languages at the same time.


Yes, I remember reading one of your posts elsewhere about that--how the more related the L3 was to the L2, the more the L2 was likely to be recalled?

And I agree that there could be some confusion about two related and simultaneously started languages. I imagine they'd sort themselves out over time, though, if one kept at both of them.
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby reineke » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:49 pm

In lieu of a "bump".

"I would note that we found lower levels of proficiency eroded permanently and to revive language that had not been assessed at least at Level 3 usually meant that study had to begin anew."

Dialog on Language Instruction
Volume 24 (1) 2014
Reaching High Levels: ILR 3 and Above

"Lesson 4. Time on task and the intensity of the learning experience appear crucial.

Learning a language also cannot be done in a short time...FSI has tried to shorten programs, and it has not worked...

Having made this investment, it is crucial to determine what can be done to maintain the language skills that the graduates have achieved or, preferably, to improve them. Language maintenance at post may not simply be a matter of giving the speakers a set of strategies to use there, but more one of attaining a “critical mass” of language proficiency. Informally, we have observed in the languages that we have worked with that an individual departing for post following training with a borderline professional proficiency (or lower) is very likely to experience attrition. An individual with a strong professional proficiency (S-3 or S-3) will maintain or improve proficiency, and with advanced professional proficiency (S3 or S-4) will almost certainly continue to improve. "

Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching

"This work analyzed 13 years of Defense Language Institute (DLI data) from over 16,000 military linguists to determine if cognitive-based skill retention theory can adequately explain foreign language change. Relationships between independent variables suggested by skill retention theory and second language change were investigated. Language proficiency and the length of time since DLI graduation demonstrated strong correlations with foreign language change...

...there is a 25 percent probability that level 2 linguists will fall to 1+ during the first year. This probability decreases to roughly 10 percent for level 2+ linguists and 5 percent for level 3 linguists...

Near the end of the survival analysis timeline, roughly a 10-year period, the probability of an event has risen to 90 percent for level 2 linguists, 70 percent for level 2+ linguists, and 50 percent for level 3 linguists."

Modeling second language change using skill retention theory
Shearer, Samuel

ILR 3+ = Firm C1
ILR 3 = B2+/C1
ILR 2/2+ = B2/B2+
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby IronMike » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:24 am

reineke wrote:In lieu of a "bump".

"I would note that we found lower levels of proficiency eroded permanently and to revive language that had not been assessed at least at Level 3 usually meant that study had to begin anew."

Dialog on Language Instruction
Volume 24 (1) 2014
Reaching High Levels: ILR 3 and Above

"Lesson 4...

Where'd you get all this? I found the issue, but I can't find the particular passages here you quote, like

reineke wrote:"This work analyzed 13 years of Defense Language Institute (DLI data) from over 16,000 military linguists...

...there is a 25 percent probability that level 2 linguists will fall to 1+ during the first year. This probability decreases to roughly 10 percent for level 2+ linguists and 5 percent for level 3 linguists...


I'd like to read the article, but I can't find it in this issue or 24(2).
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby reineke » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:35 am

Reaching high levels

Dialog on Language Instruction
Volume 24 (1) 2014

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=8396

Lessons Learned...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Av5AmfNIdK

Modeling second language change using skill
retention theory
Shearer, Samuel R.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... XuzV5dTEMO
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby Beli Tsar » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm

reineke wrote:In lieu of a "bump".

"I would note that we found lower levels of proficiency eroded permanently and to revive language that had not been assessed at least at Level 3 usually meant that study had to begin anew."


"Lesson 4. Time on task and the intensity of the learning experience appear crucial.

Learning a language also cannot be done in a short time...FSI has tried to shorten programs, and it has not worked...

Having made this investment, it is crucial to determine what can be done to maintain the language skills that the graduates have achieved or, preferably, to improve them. Language maintenance at post may not simply be a matter of giving the speakers a set of strategies to use there, but more one of attaining a “critical mass” of language proficiency. Informally, we have observed in the languages that we have worked with that an individual departing for post following training with a borderline professional proficiency (or lower) is very likely to experience attrition. An individual with a strong professional proficiency (S-3 or S-3) will maintain or improve proficiency, and with advanced professional proficiency (S3 or S-4) will almost certainly continue to improve. "

These findings, and the rest referred to in Reineke's post, are fascinating.

But how well to they apply to those learning languages for a hobby, as opposed to certain narrow professional uses?

There is clearly a degree to which a well learned language is hardwired into the brain.

But these studies don't obviously account for how the linguists might uses, and thereby keep up, their languages.

Presumably a top-notch linguist is far more likely to read novels, make deep friendships, keep up with the news, and so on, than a mediocre one. There must be plenty mediocre embassy staff around the world who try as far as possible to live in a little bubble of their own native language and culture. Certainly when I used to live near a bunch of embassies, that was the impression! The best linguists have less reason to do that. They might keep up the interest in another culture years later.

That has quite a big impact on how we translate these results for the use of those learning for pleasure - what level we need to reach, how much in the way of upkeep is required, and so on.
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby SGP » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:09 am

Arabic proverb:
مَن أخذ العلمَ جملة ذهب عنه جملة


"man akhadhal3ilma jumlatan dhahaba 3anhu jumlah".

The one who takes knowledge all at once, it (also) goes away from him all at once.
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IronMike
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby IronMike » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:23 pm

reineke wrote:Reaching high levels

Dialog on Language Instruction
Volume 24 (1) 2014

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=8396

Lessons Learned...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Av5AmfNIdK

Modeling second language change using skill
retention theory
Shearer, Samuel R.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... XuzV5dTEMO

It dawned on me I never thanked you, @reineke, for the above. I somehow missed your response. Thanks especially for the dissertation by Shearer. I did a masters thesis on this same topic in 2005 so it is of great interest to me.
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby IronMike » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:12 am

Since I've seen this topic come up under a different name...

As discussed, I'm going to try to revive my BCS later this year. Really hoping it'll come back.

(All the above is just a long way of saying "Bump.")
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby Raconteur » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:36 am

IronMike wrote:As discussed, I'm going to try to revive my BCS later this year. Really hoping it'll come back.

(All the above is just a long way of saying "Bump.")
I've been studying Italian since Jan 15th, but averaging less than 1h of study time per day. I would like to pick up the pace, and it just so happens that starting in March I will have a lot more time to devote to language learning. If I really apply myself, it could be my main task nearly every day.

I am still a beginner, in terms of Italian as well as language learning in general. Any advice on how to structure 6-10h of self-study per day (maybe mixed in with some online tutoring)? What to do? What to watch out for? What to avoid? Is it even a good idea?

Ideally, I would like to make a big leap in March - gaining some much needed momentum. If there's a point to it, I could report on how it goes (both in terms of fast learning, and hopefully not fast losing)... but idk if it would be of any interest to all of you more seasoned language learners.

In any case, any feedback or guidance (general or specific) for the weeks ahead would be greatly appreciated.
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IronMike
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Re: Learn it fast, lose it fast

Postby IronMike » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:23 am

Raconteur wrote:
IronMike wrote:As discussed, I'm going to try to revive my BCS later this year. Really hoping it'll come back.

(All the above is just a long way of saying "Bump.")
I've been studying Italian since Jan 15th, but averaging less than 1h of study time per day. I would like to pick up the pace, and it just so happens that starting in March I will have a lot more time to devote to language learning. If I really apply myself, it could be my main task nearly every day.

I am still a beginner, in terms of Italian as well as language learning in general. Any advice on how to structure 6-10h of self-study per day (maybe mixed in with some online tutoring)? What to do? What to watch out for? What to avoid? Is it even a good idea?

Ideally, I would like to make a big leap in March - gaining some much needed momentum. If there's a point to it, I could report on how it goes (both in terms of fast learning, and hopefully not fast losing)... but idk if it would be of any interest to all of you more seasoned language learners.

In any case, any feedback or guidance (general or specific) for the weeks ahead would be greatly appreciated.

Initial thoughts are: Don't immediately go to 6-10 hours. Definitely ramp up slowly. Mix it up, throwing in iTalki or IRL speaking with natives. As you get your feet under you, structure it. For example, start the morning off with il caffè while reading Italian newspaper articles, to wake up, if that's your jam.

I'll write more later.
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