The Dark Side (wahahahaaa!) of wanting to Sound Like a Native Speaker

[Le Baron]

Did anyone apart from Luke actually bother to watch or is it now the standard protocol to only comment 'about' the posting of videos and spend precious time on that? This is still a languages discussion forum, right?

Surely it isn't a dislike of the idea that one possibly can't have a native-like accent in the languages being pursued? And thus avoidance of the topic as much as possible?

How clear does it have to be? The video is about pitfalls of being overly-concerned with 'sounding native' at the expense of other, probably more useful and productive uses of learning time which might actually make someone orally active in a language. Rather than panicking at home watching videos trying to develop supposed 'authenticity' to present to the world and somehow not feel 'inferior'. In my time I've discovered there are a lot of language learners like that.

[Le Baron]

You make an effort to have correct grammar, and nobody bats an eye. Make an effort to have correct pronunciation, and a fight breaks out. wahahahaaa!

On the subject of grammar..

What do you say to comfort a friend who’s struggling with grammar?

There, their, they’re.

[tastyonions]

In my experience it's more common to meet people who will happily speak a foreign language with no more effort toward perfecting their accent than whatever minimum was needed to make themselves understandable than it is to find ones too ashamed at opening their mouth for fear that their interlocutor will spot their native language poking out from under their efforts to hide it. Though I guess among perfectionist polyglots the latter is probably more common than in the general population.

[Le Baron]

In my experience it's more common to meet people who will happily speak a foreign language with no more effort toward perfecting their accent than whatever minimum was needed to make themselves understandable than it is to find ones too ashamed at opening their mouth for fear that their interlocutor will figure out what their native language is. Though I guess among perfectionist polyglots the latter is probably more common among than in the general population.

Now this is true and probably the case where people learn perhaps a single language they really dedicate themselves to and only as a tool for whatever their other aims are. Whereas learning for the sake of the learning a language - and with other languages alongside - it becomes the sole focus and end in itself.

[Cainntear]

Did anyone apart from Luke actually bother to watch or is it now the standard protocol to only comment 'about' the posting of videos and spend precious time on that? This is still a languages discussion forum, right?

Yes, but you haven't invited us to start a discussion, have you? You've put a video and told basically want us to watch it, but you haven't given a reason to. I started watching it because I know you (to a certain extent) and felt if there was something in there that you thought was worth seeing, there was probably something that was worth seeing. But all you've said is "I agree with a lot of it", so I didn't really know what I was supposed to be watching for.
For me to spend 20 minutes of my life watching a video, I need someone to make a strong recommendation.

The whole thing about "no-one's forcing you to watch" and "no-one's forcing you to read a thread"... well there's that thing called clickbait. The video title and thumbnail are clickbait, and you've copied the video's title.

This means people come into this thread expecting to see something thought provoking, and then they're immediately disappointed by not seeing a thought provoking post, and just a slight comment about the clickbaitiness of the video... before an embedded video with clickbait.

Clickbait makes people feel cheated.

How clear does it have to be? The video is about pitfalls of being overly-concerned with 'sounding native' at the expense of other, probably more useful and productive uses of learning time which might actually make someone orally active in a language. Rather than panicking at home watching videos trying to develop supposed 'authenticity' to present to the world and somehow not feel 'inferior'. In my time I've discovered there are a lot of language learners like that.

Sorry... how clear does what have to be? You keep telling us the topic of the video, but the topic alone is not why we should watch.

If you had a choice of a video by a monolingual schoolboy talking about the matter of sounding native in a foreign language and a video by retired language teacher with 12 languages given a talk on the same topic, I imagine you'd choose the later.

So if I want to watch a video about sounding like a native speaker, why should I watch this video about sounding like a native speaker?

You coulf not simply answer "because it talks about sounding like a native speaker" without me answering "so do lots of other videos. Why watch this one?" and I doubt you would expect to. If I suggested a video without giving you any reason to watch it, how would you feel about that?

This is a discussion forum, and threads should start a discussion.
Yours only started a discussion about discussions, which was not your intention.
But you clickbaited us, and you're now seeing the reaction to clickbait.

You could have softened that by starting the thread title with "video" -- then we would have clicked and had the expectation of you asking us to watch a video, but you clickbaited us by telling us we were going to get a discussion about something we're all very interested in (both the pro- and anti- camps!) and then you rug-pulled us by just giving us a video.

[lingohot]

Cainntear, this is not normal, seriously...

[leosmith]

This is a discussion forum, and threads should start a discussion.

How about this:

How clear does it have to be? The video is about pitfalls of being overly-concerned with 'sounding native' at the expense of other

I watched 3.5 minutes of it; she set the bar higher than anyone I've ever met. She considered herself a failure if natives speakers could tell she wasn't native. Of course that's a bad idea. So yes, it's pretty clear as you suggest, but also a Fringe scenario. The problem with videos like this is people watch them and take away "pronunciation just isn't that important", then go on Reddit and rant "Why won't the French talk French with me?" This "anti pronunciation" philosophy is so popular right now that it's having a negative impact on the language learning community. There should be more videos of the type "Pronunciation is important. You don't have to be perfect, but you have to make an effort, and here's how you should do it..."

[Le Baron]

I watched 3.5 minutes of it; she set the bar higher than anyone I've ever met. She considered herself a failure if natives speakers could tell she wasn't native. Of course that's a bad idea. So yes, it's pretty clear as you suggest, but also a Fringe scenario. The problem with videos like this is people watch them and take away "pronunciation just isn't that important", then go on Reddit and rant "Why won't the French talk French with me?" This "anti pronunciation" philosophy is so popular right now that it's having a negative impact on the language learning community. There should be more videos of the type "Pronunciation is important. You don't have to be perfect, but you have to make an effort, and here's how you should do it..."

If you watched more I think you'll see she agrees with you. Not that developing pronunciation isn't important, it is, but the ideology of 'sounding native' which is far more pernicious. People who try this never achieve their goal. They end up with a some cobbled together idea of what they think it is.

[Le Baron]

Yes, but you haven't invited us to start a discussion, have you?

Are you going crackers or just trying it on? What do you think the original post is for? The only thing stopping you from initiating any (productive) discussion is a propensity to unsolicited, long-winded 'correction'. I didn't 'tell' anyone to watch anything. Why can't you understand that? Or do you not want to understand it, because it's more satisfying to blather out a long post of pseudo-analysis about how I've somehow deceived you and everyone else with clickbait?

If I was a recent member with 2 posts and no avatar and a name with numbers in it, I'd understand your complaint, but since I'm not and have had numerous other discussions, one would think you'd have the common decency to assume that I don't string people along with 'clickbait'.

This 'twenty minutes of your life' seems instead to have been squandered, deigning to lecture me on how I should approach starting a thread! You cheeky get! Like I said, if you have no interest in watching it don't watch it and then you don;t have to post anything either and your time is saved. But save the pompous admonishment for somewhere else. Outrageous!

[Cainntear]

Cainntear, this is not normal, seriously...

I never was normal. Definitely never going to be normal now. (The driver has a lot to answer for there.)

Yes, but you haven't invited us to start a discussion, have you?

Are you going crackers or just trying it on? What do you think the original post is for?

Yes, but there's a difference between starting a discussion and saying: "this video... discuss".

I didn't 'tell' anyone to watch anything. Why can't you understand that? Or do you not want to understand it, because it's more satisfying to blather out a long post of pseudo-analysis about how I've somehow deceived you and everyone else with clickbait?

I am talking about broader social tendencies, not about you specifically. This thread started off in quite a normal way. I just don't like the new normal that much -- what I used to call "the Twitterification of the internet".

If I was a recent member with 2 posts and no avatar and a name with numbers in it, I'd understand your complaint, but since I'm not and have had numerous other discussions, one would think you'd have the common decency to assume that I don't string people along with 'clickbait'.

And that raises the question of double standards... if we accept something from regulars but don't accept superficially identical behaviour from newbies... well what are we teaching them? That's why I actually stopped watching the video after I had started watching it the first time: I was asking myself "if I wouldn't accept this from a newbie, why should I accept it from a regular?"

This 'twenty minutes of your life' seems instead to have been squandered, deigning to lecture me on how I should approach starting a thread! You cheeky get! Like I said, if you have no interest in watching it don't watch it and then you don;t have to post anything either and your time is saved. But save the pompous admonishment for somewhere else. Outrageous!

Feel free to disagree on specific points -- that's how discussions work, but that's my regular bugbear about the Twitterification of the internet: we're all getting quick to dislike each other when the other doesn't instantly agree with everything we've said rather than exploring where we disagree and coming to a clearer understanding.