UK quit Erasmus

[Le Baron]

A titbit of information about the real Erasmus. Here in Utrecht there's a small building at the back of the Cathedral which is part of the complex. See the maps link below. It's either the brick part or the yellowish rendered bit. It was a Latin school and Erasmus either attended or taught there. There's a plaque on the wall, but you can't zoom in. I'll go and read it tomorrow and see if I've got it right.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TeafhytY9L1TSc4B6

[Ug_Caveman]

Honestly, quitting Erasmus filled me with a deep sadness.

I never took part personally - but as a result of the exchange program I made some amazing friends who came to the UK to study whom I still speak to more than half a decade later (and I'll be visiting some of them within the year too.)

[garyb]

I never took part personally - but as a result of the exchange program I made some amazing friends who came to the UK to study whom I still speak to more than half a decade later (and I'll be visiting some of them within the year too.)

Same. Not taking part is a regret of mine, but at the time I wasn't really interested and as others have said I don't feel that the university really tried to sell it to us. We knew it existed, but not much was done to really convince us of the benefits, while they did really push the benefits of staying at our university for that year and choosing from all the interesting courses that were available.

Also, for me the options would have been Italy or Germany, and I didn't know either language or feel capable of learning it in a few months; if a French-speaking area had been on the table I would have considered it more seriously since I had studied French at high school. Of course this was before I discovered my passion for languages, and I was a bit young and ignorant and I didn't know how similar Italian was to French, or indeed that learning the local language generally isn't required or expected anyway! Now I'd kill to have the chance to spend a semester or year in Italy or Germany studying, without many "real-life" obligations and concerns, and Italian and German are two of the languages I'm most interested in... How things change!

I also made some good friends (and a girlfriend!) thanks to Erasmus students coming here.

Anyway I'm also deeply sad at the news, even though I already knew it was coming.

[Cavesa]

It's not surprising at all, even though the language skills are a very simple way to blame the students instead of the system.

Yes, costs are definitely a valid argument, all budgets are limited. The dysbalance between incomers and outcomers is a very good argument. But it is not just due to languages at all. The British universities are seen as very prestigious in Europe. And they also cost quite a lot. So, "downgrading" to a less prestigious university is simply less attractive, than a Slovak or Estonian getting a semester in the UK.

There are some huge problems with overall presentation of Erasmus, and the language issues are a symptome, not the cause. It should really be normalized that going on Erasmus=having to prepare as far as the language goes. And also separate bubbles of Erasmus students in English in non-anglophone countries should be highly discouraged, the whole point is getting to know the real foreign country, university, and culture.

I am one of those, who did Erasmus in a not-English language and it was life-changing.

But when I see how Erasmus gets presented, I am not surprised at all that people get the wrong ideas and the program is simply not attractive enough for the more privileged countries, such as UK.

Really, anyone capable of studying at university is capable of reaching B2 in a european language in 6-12 months. Claiming otherwise is just laziness and excuses. Language learning is not the cause of the problem, but it is easy to blame.

But a long as we don't promote enough plurilingualism, as long as we do not present enough the strengths of the individual universities even outside of the most popular choices (an example of very high quality in research is for example the University of Chemistry and Technology in Prague, or the quality of some technical fields even in Kosice in Slovakia, yet uninformed people will still see "oh, just shitty eastern europe").

It is very sad to see the UK leave this network completely. Even though there was for example not a single UK medschool available to Czech students, so clearly there has always been less enthusiasm than in some other countries.

But UK is currently in the phase of reevaluating its position in the world. And when it comes to education, it is right now juggling the loss of attractivity due to Brexit, the need for the foreign students' money, the issue of places for locals vs the foreigners, and much more. Not wanting to also deal with Erasmus at the same time is no surprise.

Who knows, perhaps they'll rejoin some day. Or perhaps some of the Brits will start emigrating for their studies, it might happen.

[tiia]

I thought it would make sense to actually look at the official objectives of the Erasmus+ programme.

The general objective of the Programme is to support, through lifelong learning, the educational, professional and personal development of people in education, training, youth and sport, in Europe and beyond, thereby contributing to sustainable growth, quality jobs and social cohesion, to driving innovation, and to strengthening European identity and active citizenship. [...]

The Programme has the following specific objectives:
- to promote learning mobility of individuals and groups, as well as cooperation, quality, inclusion and equity, excellence, creativity and innovation at the level of organisations and policies in the field of education and training;
- to promote non-formal and informal learning mobility and active participation among young people, as well as cooperation, quality, inclusion, creativity and innovation at the level of organisations and policies in the field of youth;
- to promote learning mobility of sport staff, as well as cooperation, quality, inclusion, creativity and innovation at the level of sport organisations and sport policies.

So although the official goal of the EU is the knowledge of two foreign languages (if needed I can find you a source for that), it is not the only reason for the Erasmus programme. Maybe as a language learning forum we may forget that at times. (?)

Connecting people from different backgrounds and giving them the opportunity to get to know each other makes a lot of sense, even if it happens in English. Although I'm all for getting to know the local culture and learning the local language, those people you get to know there, will also give you an insight to their culture. No matter where they are from. The more you know about someone and have a good time together, the less likely you will want to fight against them later on - something that is indeed important in a globalized world.

I'm a bit biased when it comes to demanding language skills of the local language upfront. Of course it would be great to have them, but as soon as we would demand them, almost no-one would go to countries, where the main language is not English, German, French, Spanish or Italian. Except for a few people, who learned different languages for some reasons (family relations or bilingual countries...) People would not have the opportunity to make positive experiences in yet unknown places. The imbalance between incomings and outgoings would just increase.
But there have been instruments to keep the balance if needed.
From my own Erasmus coordinators back then I heard of a Swedish university that only accepted incomings from those universities, they also had a student going to for that year. That system is definitely not perfect, because it is extremely unfortunate for the individual student that suddenly cannot go, where they thought they would, while all alternative places (in the same country) may already have been taken. Such students can now still go to a random left over place instead of not going anywhere at all (if they are open for that).

I know some people who went on exchange to countries they did not expect they would go to, or who chose a destination because they really wanted to experience something new. Or sometimes they also got a recommendation by their professor that a certain place would be probably good etc. Those are indeed the people I remember going to places like Slovenia, Estonia, the Czech Republic and Poland. Due to the time frame between the application and the moment you're actually going, it is almost impossible to aquire good language skills before arrival.
It is simply not realistic to learn those languages in question just in 6-12 months to a B2 level. Not for an average student that has to do their normal studies as well. Especially since it's more likely to be just 6-8 months and not 12, if the place you got is not your first choice.*
But once in country, it's a different. You really should try to learn something.
Of course, I would I wish for more people having other language skills than English (or FIGS) before the exchange. I still found it sad, that almost no other exchange in Finland knew any Finnish before going. And then may not have learned it in country, because the University reduced the amount of Finnish courses during that year.



*A short explanation on how placements were given to the students back at my University: In the first round you could make a list of up to three places, where you would like to go to. Those places needed to be from the list of places your faculty offered. The coordinators will go through those applications and accept students to those placements. Some students may not get a place in the first round, if too many students want to go to the same location.
In the second round the left over places of each faculty were filled by the principle "first come, first serve." They then also accept students from different faculties for the places, though preferrably those from similar faculties.
The first round often had an application deadline in December, while the decision was done during January. At the end of January they opend the left over places for anyone else.
I got my Erasmus place in Finland only through the second round, because my own faculty didn't offer any place in Finland. So I had to hope for the places from another faculty still being free after the first round. I contacted the prospective coordinators of the other faculty already during the first round, so that the day the first round would be over, I could immediately claim the place.

[Cavesa]

I thought it would make sense to actually look at the official objectives of the Erasmus+ programme.

... and to strengthening European identity and active citizenship. [...]

So although the official goal of the EU is the knowledge of two foreign languages (if needed I can find you a source for that), it is not the only reason for the Erasmus programme. Maybe as a language learning forum we may forget that at times. (?) [/quote]

But can you strenghten European identity, if you turn a lot of Erasmus opportunities into a parallel society, anglophone bubble, that has nothing to do with the real life in the real part of Europe the group happens to be?

Connecting people from different backgrounds and giving them the opportunity to get to know each other makes a lot of sense, even if it happens in English. Although I'm all for getting to know the local culture and learning the local language, those people you get to know there, will also give you an insight to their culture. No matter where they are from. The more you know about someone and have a good time together, the less likely you will want to fight against them later on - something that is indeed important in a globalized world.

In theory.

The unfortunate reality, twisted by too much English: the foreigners coming for Erasmus to any Czech medical faculty get placed in the anglophone class. There are very few exceptions, who learn Czech and get the real experience The result: very little interaction in both ways. They get integrated in an already distant and specific bubble that has nothing to do with us. They get very wrong ideas about the studies and the system in the country (basically they often leave thinking "oh, the students in this country don't really have to work hard!" which leads to prejudices against Czechs based on the anglophone class buying easier degrees).

So, what is the "European identity" that Erasmus is supposed to strengthen? Is it getting to know each other (incomer-local interaction), or is it getting to know an articially created anglophone party bubble that buys easier degrees than the locals?

I'm a bit biased when it comes to demanding language skills of the local language upfront. Of course it would be great to have them, but as soon as we would demand them, almost no-one would go to countries, where the main language is not English, German, French, Spanish or Italian. Except for a few people, who learned different languages for some reasons (family relations or bilingual countries...) People would not have the opportunity to make positive experiences in yet unknown places. The imbalance between incomings and outgoings would just increase.

You are right that the imbalance would increase, it is unfair but true. It sucks to come from one of the lower value countries (and I really wish a sort of exchange program was made and pushed on uni teachers, to improve the quality in the worse countries). No wonder a Brit wouldn't abandon their prestigious university for a Czech one, the language doesn't even enter the equation in this sense.

But it sounds as if you expect only people, who happened to learn the language for another reason, to apply. Nope, it should be normal to even learn the language FOR the Erasmus+ opportunity. Really, anyone considering themselves clever enough to study can also learn a language reasonably fast.

But there have been instruments to keep the balance if needed.
From my own Erasmus coordinators back then I heard of a Swedish university that only accepted incomings from those universities, they also had a student going to for that year. That system is definitely not perfect, because it is extremely unfortunate for the individual student that suddenly cannot go, where they thought they would, while all alternative places (in the same country) may already have been taken. Such students can now still go to a random left over place instead of not going anywhere at all (if they are open for that).

Yes, such instruments exist. They are not perfect, but they serve. I suppose some sort of bilateral arrangements one for one will also be UK's path in the near future. It is actually the only solution, that seems to make sense. Or perhaps they will focus more on something similar with other regions and structures, such as the Commonwealth.

However, the only missing piece is, that you assume getting a left over place is a good enough reason to not learn the language. I don't really think so. Either they are going abroad to study and get to know another part of Europe, and then the language is important. Or they are just gonna party in English with the anglophone bubble, and then the public money would be better spent elsewhere.

I know some people who went on exchange to countries they did not expect they would go to, or who chose a destination because they really wanted to experience something new. Or sometimes they also got a recommendation by their professor that a certain place would be probably good etc. Those are indeed the people I remember going to places like Slovenia, Estonia, the Czech Republic and Poland. Due to the time frame between the application and the moment you're actually going, it is almost impossible to aquire good language skills before arrival.
It is simply not realistic to learn those languages in question just in 6-12 months to a B2 level. Not for an average student that has to do their normal studies as well. Especially since it's more likely to be just 6-8 months and not 12, if the place you got is not your first choice.*
But once in country, it's a different. You really should try to learn something.

Yes, the recommendations are an important part. There are good faculties or degrees even in the lower prestige countries. This is a part that should get strenghtened. I found it a bit sad that some of my classmates were just choosing by country and city, without informing themselves at all about the faculties.

Well, even B1 (with a clear intention to improve in the country) would still be more than the 0 that is far too common these days
I know quite a lot about learning while studying. And I was in medschool, vast majority of degrees is laughable in comparison. I don't think vast majority of students really cannot learn a language, they simply choose not to, because they are allowed to choose so.

Of course, I would I wish for more people having other language skills than English (or FIGS) before the exchange. I still found it sad, that almost no other exchange in Finland knew any Finnish before going. And then may not have learned it in country, because the University reduced the amount of Finnish courses during that year.

Yep, this is the other side of the problem. The universities have budgets too, and at the same time very low expectations from the Erasmus students.

[Slowpoke]

I think your proficiency for languages and general intelligence may be helping you to set expectations that the overwhelming majority of students can't meet. I know in my country, plenty of politicians study French for years and struggle to make headway - it seems unreasonable to expect ,say, a Spaniard who wants to go to Budapest to get to a level of Hungarian with which they can socialize and take courses, in 1 year when they also are:

- in university for the first time
- frequently living alone for the first
- probably learning a language outside of school for the first time

Is the expectation unreasonable for more similar languages, or for people who know where they want to go in year one and do an exchange in their master's? No, but in that case are we creating two different programs?

[Le Baron]

Well I reject the core charge in the original article anyway. It's imaginary. If anyone on here listens to France Culture the number of UK writers, artists, film-makers, some politicians etc they interview on there in French demolishes the claim that 'everyone only speaks English'. Only yesterday I heard historian Julian Jackson speaking in impeccable French.

Meanwhile on the German news, the French news, the Dutch news, Italian news.... someone from a neighbouring country is a guest and is either just speaking in English with an earpiece or speaking English with some translator layered over the top. I'm talking about French people on Italian TV, where the languages are supposed to be so related they can get along. This is swept under the carpet. Why hasn't Erasmus created a swathe of Euro multilinguals?

Here's my statement: the claim that the average mainland European person, even 'educated' people, 'speaks two or more languages' in a fluent manner, rather than their just native language and some English, is an absolute lie. Fake news.

It seems to me obvious that Erasmus is most beneficial for people who already have a decent level in a 2nd language. Otherwise they won't be able to follow the university level courses. No pre-18 school anywhere provides this level. However when English is so heavily drilled by countries hoping it will give them advantages, it's always going to look like the picture is lopsided.

Also there's no point in people moaning and groaning about the position of English around Europe. It is here because of the general populations sucking down media and culture like there's no tomorrow for the last 50-odd years and dumping other languages in favour of it because it's seen as 'easy'. No English-speaking nation is ordering anyone to take it up, it is internal policy. Many of these countries insist on speaking English to people trying hard to learn their languages, So it's their own doing.

[emk]

Really, anyone capable of studying at university is capable of reaching B2 in a european language in 6-12 months. Claiming otherwise is just laziness and excuses. Language learning is not the cause of the problem, but it is easy to blame.

My gut feeling about B2 has always been, "You can go to a real university and take classes, but the first 6 months will be hell." Certainly this is about the level the DELF B2 tests for. And from earlier discussions here, I think the DELF B2 is harder than many B2 exams. And I strongly suspect that many universities which admit large numbers of B2 students have a special track for the first term or two to help them catch up. At lower levels, I've seen what happens when B1-level English speakers try to take high-school level Advanced Placement classes. I had a roommate who tried this and it was absolutely brutal. He told me, "I have 30 pages of reading to do a night, and I'm looking up 30 words per page. Do the math."

I agree that most people who can do college-level work would also learn a Category I or II language to B2 within 9 months of complete immersion. But as mentioned above, B2 is an awfully shaky level for taking real college classes.

So I would not expect students starting from zero to learn much real college-level material during 9 months of immersion.

[bombobuffoon]

Well I reject the core charge inn the original article anyway. It's imaginary. If anyone on here listens to France Culture the number of UK writers, artists, film-makers, some politicians etc they interview on there in French demolishes the claim that 'everyone only speaks English'. Only yesterday I heard historian Julian Jackson speaking in impeccable French.

Meanwhile on the German news, the French news, the Dutch news, Italian news.... someone from a neighbouring country is a guest and is either just speaking in English with an earpiece or speaking English with some translator layered over the top. I'm talking about French people on Italian TV, where the languages are supposed to be so related they can get along. This is swept under the carpet. Why hasn't Erasmus created a swathe of Euro multilinguals?

Here's my statement: the claim that the average mainland European person, even 'educated' people, 'speaks two or more languages' in a fluent manner, rather than their just native language and some English, is an absolute lie. Fake news.

It seems to me obvious that Erasmus is most beneficial for people who already have a decent level in a 2nd language. Otherwise they won't be able to follow the university level courses. No pre-18 school anywhere provides this level. However when English is so heavily drilled by countries hoping it will give them advantages, it's always going to look like the picture is lopsided.

Also there's no point in people moaning and groaning about the position of English around Europe. It is here because of the general populations sucking down media and culture like there's no tomorrow for the last 50-odd years and dumping other languages in favour of it because it's seen as 'easy'. No English-speaking nation is ordering anyone to take it up, it is internal policy. Many of these countries insist on speaking English to people trying hard to learn their languages, So it's their own doing.

Depends on the country. The vast majority of Europeans do not even speak hardly any English at all, in my experience.

However to be sure certain countries, particularly Belgium, Holland, it seems everyone speaks at least English very plus a couple other languages. This is also somewhat similar to Nordics where English is mandatory in school so everyone speaks serviceable English, and speaking a third or fourth language to a A1-2 level e.g. Swedish, Russian, German is more common than not.

The reason for this is I think these are sort of "gateway" nations, and are a bit of an exception.