Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

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Re: Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

Postby Iversen » Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:21 am

Both Deppenapostrophe and Deppenleerzeichen can be defended on the grounds that you can produce milelong compound words in German, and they can be hard to read. However we have the same problem in Danish, and I solve it by using hyphens to split them up in palatable morsels - NOT spaces as in English. I also use genitival apostrophs even though they aren't officially allowed in Danish - but they are practical. As for the influence of English on Danish: it is very pronounced at the lexical and idiomatic levels, but less so on grammar. I have actually problems pointing to clear cases where it has happened. For instance the use of short words both as verbs and substantives is one of the things I really like in English, but it has not really become a feature of Danish. However code switching is very common and can produce some fairly ungrammatical utterances.

And by the way: my unmitigated contempt for people in the advertisement bizzinizz is not only based on their treatment of all customers as idiots, but also on their tendency to use English because they think it's smart. I'm also fairly nonplussed with the limited repertoire in the public media: just because those who buy programs from abroad on their behalf are linguistically challenged it can't be right that we are bombarded with programs in English and English only (almost).
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Re: Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

Postby tiia » Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:18 pm

Iversen wrote:Both Deppenapostrophe and Deppenleerzeichen can be defended on the grounds that you can produce milelong compound words in German, and they can be hard to read.

A space can change the meaning, while a hyphen would not. Instead also hyphens are then often exchanged by a space.
I for myself have to say that seperating words that should not be seperated has left me stumbling at times, until I realised that the person made a mistake and it should be just one word instead of two. Since the space can change the meaning, it often does not really make something more understandable.
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Re: Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:02 pm

DaveAgain wrote:I think you could call this code switching.

I consider true code switching a functional response to circumstances. Matching the other participants in conversations. I've done this plenty times when there's e.g. a German and Spaniard in a group and we're all speaking Dutch at the base, but dropping in words and entire phrases from elsewhere. It's merely the result of not having time in a live discussion to work out translations for things you're accustomed to talking about in one language. Or because you don't know the translation and the others are likely to understand you.

What I described is Dutch people talking to Dutch people! They don't need to switch codes. Such as using the word 'movie'. I'd expect retention of English words for things which are increasingly encountered in education e.g. 'peer-reviewed' and 'a close reading' etc. Though in fact the latter isn't even in my usual vocabulary. I'm not from a literary analysis background, but things like this were generally called 'textual analysis'. What I see is words and terminology being presented to non-native L2 speakers as though they are all the standard terminology. It's not uncommon for certain lexical items to be adopted and used which strike a native speaker as just plain odd.
tungemål wrote:I don't like it but I'm not as concerned as you, because I think it's typical for young people like teenagers and students. They will outgrow it. I don't know how it is in Holland, but in Norway there's a strong pride in our language. English will not replace our language.

I think Norway might be in a better position in that regard, which warms my heart. There's a lower level of pride in the language here. For some people it's almost embarrassment. It's also more than just teenagers and young people. One of the additional causes is that some tiresome 'research' body keeps going around testing Euro countries on their English abilities and then the press here trumpets that NL is 'top of the league'. So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy thing feeding into everything, including the government's deranged plans of turning the entire education toward English language instruction.

And yet on the streets it's overwhelmingly Dutch you hear, because the truth is a lot of people are railroaded into English use and feel they have to keep up with the Joneses. As if some museum here in Utrecht, which is primarily visited by Dutch people, will collapse into international obscurity if it doesn't put up signs and artefact explanations primarily in English. It's a cultural poison.
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Re: Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

Postby Doitsujin » Sun Feb 04, 2024 4:36 pm

Le Baron wrote:The most visible effect of English is interjections like: 'whatever', 'oh my god!' the naive use of 'what the f*ck' [..]
In Germany, young people will often insert English phrases such as "so what?" and "how cool is this?," presumably to show how "cosmopolitan" they are, even though perfectly usable German equivalents exist. The same goes for lots of marketing people.

In some cases, English has even influenced German grammar. For example, in German, we used to say "keinen Sinn ergeben/nicht sinnvoll sein" but nowadays you'll usually see and hear "keinen Sinn machen," which is a calcque of "to not make sense."
Another case is the reflexive German verb "sich erinnern an" = "to remember." Since "remember" isn't used with a preposition, many younger German speakers will use "erinnern" as a transitive verb and without the preposition "an." You might hear *"Ich erinnere das." instead of "Ich erinnere mich daran."
The folllowing German article by "Zwiebelfisch" author Bastian Sick lists several other examples: Ich erinnere das nicht.
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Re: Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

Postby Chung » Mon Feb 05, 2024 4:24 am

In French, there's the calque of "let me know" as "laissez-moi savoir" and "laisses-moi savoir" impinging on the native "faites-moi savoir" and "fais-moi savoir" respectively (i.e. literally "make me know" instead of "let me know")

According to this study, children who are bilingual in English and Polish tend to overuse pronouns, determiners and other referential markers in Polish compared to children who are monolingual in Polish even if the sentences uttered by both groups of children were grammatical. The researchers attributed this difference to English interference in Polish in the bilingual kids.

I suppose that this would lead to an irreversible change in Polish only if enough Polish children who've grown up with English instruction since a very young age in this century were to somehow start expressing themselves in Polish by the 2040s as adults such that potentially but subtly anglicized Polish were to prevail as the standard.
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Re: Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

Postby Cainntear » Mon Feb 05, 2024 1:36 pm

Chung wrote:According to this study, children who are bilingual in English and Polish tend to overuse pronouns, determiners and other referential markers in Polish compared to children who are monolingual in Polish even if the sentences uttered by both groups of children were grammatical. The researchers attributed this difference to English interference in Polish in the bilingual kids.

I suppose that this would lead to an irreversible change in Polish only if enough Polish children who've grown up with English instruction since a very young age in this century were to somehow start expressing themselves in Polish by the 2040s as adults such that potentially but subtly anglicized Polish were to prevail as the standard.

I think this is probably because of the number of Poles who raised families in the UK after Poland joined the EU. Many of them went back when the Polish economy was still getting stronger and the UK economy (as in most other parts of Europe) stalled.

I don't know how many went back home, but I don't think they will be a particularly significant number of the total population.

That said, there is the matter of whether their way of speaking starts to be seen as a marker of "prestige", and that's actually quite possible.

Kids who grew up in the UK will have good English, and that will set them up for positions of responsibility in international companies and companies with international contracts. People are prone to copy the style and mannerisms of successful people as an aspirational goal, and to try to be identified as being like the successful people.

The original reasons for a bunch of successful people having a certain way of speech are not particularly relevant to this -- people wouldn't be mimicking bilinguals to make people incorrectly identify them as bilingual: they'd simply be trying to act like successful people.

I don't imagine this would happen for another ten years at least, as that's when migrant kids would be in senior management roles.

And I#m not saying that this will happen, but it could.
And it could also end up being a new type of management jargon thatthe majority of Polish speakers only imitate in order to mock the management. (Like when English speakers say things like "Let's circle back to the blue sky thinking for a truly transformative paradigm shift"! )
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Re: Other than vocabulary, how has English influenced other languages?

Postby Chung » Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:26 pm

Cainntear wrote:
Chung wrote:According to this study, children who are bilingual in English and Polish tend to overuse pronouns, determiners and other referential markers in Polish compared to children who are monolingual in Polish even if the sentences uttered by both groups of children were grammatical. The researchers attributed this difference to English interference in Polish in the bilingual kids.

I suppose that this would lead to an irreversible change in Polish only if enough Polish children who've grown up with English instruction since a very young age in this century were to somehow start expressing themselves in Polish by the 2040s as adults such that potentially but subtly anglicized Polish were to prevail as the standard.

I think this is probably because of the number of Poles who raised families in the UK after Poland joined the EU. Many of them went back when the Polish economy was still getting stronger and the UK economy (as in most other parts of Europe) stalled.

I don't know how many went back home, but I don't think they will be a particularly significant number of the total population.

That said, there is the matter of whether their way of speaking starts to be seen as a marker of "prestige", and that's actually quite possible.

Kids who grew up in the UK will have good English, and that will set them up for positions of responsibility in international companies and companies with international contracts. People are prone to copy the style and mannerisms of successful people as an aspirational goal, and to try to be identified as being like the successful people.

The original reasons for a bunch of successful people having a certain way of speech are not particularly relevant to this -- people wouldn't be mimicking bilinguals to make people incorrectly identify them as bilingual: they'd simply be trying to act like successful people.

I don't imagine this would happen for another ten years at least, as that's when migrant kids would be in senior management roles.

And I#m not saying that this will happen, but it could.
And it could also end up being a new type of management jargon thatthe majority of Polish speakers only imitate in order to mock the management. (Like when English speakers say things like "Let's circle back to the blue sky thinking for a truly transformative paradigm shift"! )


That's what I'm thinking.

The Poles from the generation that's come of age in the first couple decades of this century will hit their stride work-wise by the start of the 2040s, and how they speak Polish is likely to have at least a little influence on the language. The youngest Gen X-ers and the generations following them came of age after the communist era have had growing exposure to English and the rest of Europe thanks to Poland's membership in the EU as of 2004. Younger working-age Poles in the country now have already been quite mobile compared to previous generations in that they've spent at least a few years working and/or studying outside the country, not to mention the re-immigration of some Poles from the UK over the last few years (Brexit didn't help).
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