How good/bad was your school languages experience...in reality?

[vonPeterhof]

I've had three classes in three languages at school aside from my native Russian: English, Kazakh and German. I actually started learning English back in kindergarten, and the primary schools that I went to all had English classes. Unfortunately this means that I remember very little of the time when English was fully opaque to me and can't really judge if the level of English I reached by middle school years was due to me starting so early, the specific methods and materials I was taught with or just me being a good student in pretty much all classes back then. What I do remember clearly is that around 3rd grade I was judged good enough to attend extra English activities with slightly older students, conducted by a native speaker teacher (all I remember from those activities is watching Star Wars and playing a Choose Your Own Adventure game), and that when I reached middle school and we got English classes separated by level I was assigned to the highest-level group where I was the only student who had never lived in an English-speaking country. I also remember that it was only around that time that I first actually started to be interested in English not just as a school subject, but a language I could do activities and consume media in out of school. I guess this means that there had to have been something good about those classes prior to that.

Since most of my schooling was in Kazakhstan, Kazakh technically wasn't a foreign language, in the Russian-medium schools I went to it was essentially treated like one. Most classes revolved around reading and translating texts, and maybe sometimes summarizing them in your own words. A pretty revealing fact is that "Kazakh literature" was a separate subject from the Kazakh language, taught entirely in Russian and only in middle school. The founder of the Kazakh speaking club I go to these days, himself an ethnic Russian from a Russian-majority town in northern Kazakhstan, often talks about how school gave him a good grounding in the grammar, but he never really got conversational because there were no opportunities to actually use the language outside of school. In my case I'm not sure I'd even go as far as saying that I got a good grounding in the grammar at school. Here are a few things I did get a good understanding of at school:

-the phonemes of the language, how they fit into the vowel harmony paradigm and how they are reflected in the spelling (although I still sometimes run into issues with fossilized errors due to early confusion between the phonemes /n/ and /ŋ/)
-the cases and how consonant assimilation rules affect their suffixes
-the conjugation patterns in the basic past, non-past and distant past tenses

And here are the things I've had to figure out on my own after school:

-modal verbs. If they did teach us how to say "I can" or "I want to" none of it stuck in my mind past school.
-the distinctions between the four present tense-forming auxiliary verbs. I distinctly remember being told that, aside from literal usage (i.e. for actions performed while standing, sitting, lying or walking), they were essentially interchangeable.
-pretty much any verbal constructions outside of the basic declarative or requesting sentences.
-phonetic processes that occur in between words in natural speech and aren't reflected in the spelling. Even if this is something you're better off not being taught explicitly, still goes to show how little exposure to natural, non-pedagogical speech I got.

I do have to agree on the lack of opportunities to use the language being a detrimental factor. While the presence of Kazakh in the public sphere has certainly improved since my childhood, it's still remarkably easy to just stay inside a Russian-speaking bubble in most of the large cities. And while my first reaction to discovering modern Kazakh pop music and movies was "where was all this cool media back when I was growing up!?" the right question probably should have been "what stopped me from even trying to check out the Kazakh media that was available at the time?"

Starting from middle school years at the school where I spend most of my time at you could pick a "second foreign language" class out of German, French and Spanish. The classes were entirely optional and were taught on Saturdays, so few people signed up in the first place and even fewer stuck around till the end. While the classes did start out pretty serious, by the end we would often just find ourselves talking with the teacher about things that had nothing to do with the class and 100% in Russian. At the very least I got a bit of knowledge I could build off of in my university German classes.

[bejewelled_niffler]

Whether language classes are good or not, whether they work or not, where I come from it's all moot because the trash students made sure that no one could receive an education anyway.

My high school French education was okay but only because I found a book in French and went to my teacher before school so she could help me read it. I learned a lot from those sessions.

Class was usually a lost cause because the teacher wasn't allowed to fail anyone who deserved it, or kick anyone out of the room, or she would be fired. The students knew this and the results were predictable.

I could have had the best French teacher in the world with a magic bullet curriculum that could make a class of 20 students fluent in one year and the results would have been exactly the same. So there's no point in trying to evaluate the instructional quality of the classes. I got good instructional quality from my private tutoring sessions before school, so I can imagine class would have also been high quality if the barn animals had been expelled and left behind the 5 students who were interested in their educations. But I'll never know.

[Le Baron]

So there's no point in trying to evaluate the instructional quality of the classes. I got good instructional quality from my private tutoring sessions before school, so I can imagine class would have also been high quality if the barn animals had been expelled and left behind the 5 students who were interested in their educations. But I'll never know.

Considering you could get private tutoring I wonder why you went to such a bad school at all.

[Cavesa]

language results have parents paying for tons of extra tutoring and private classes. A few more are just very strong at self studying (including doing exactly the opposite of what the teacher recommends).

I'm moved to disagree more with this. Lots of students are guided in schools. In the same way we can't judge all experiences by mine, we must also not judge them all by yours. That's fair isn't it? At university I met plenty of people studying languages who were very good, but came from impoverished backgrounds through the state school system. That some might also be better at self-guidance is, I'd agree, a likely factor. [/quote]
And what was the entry level? That matters a lot. I hear that some american universities let you start a normal language degree from zero language skill. I've met a few people studying those degrees, who were about to graduate with B1ish French. That is not the standard everywhere. In most language degrees at the Czech universities (and it seems to be the european standard), the starting level (for all the major languages, not the niche ones) is B2, and sometimes the entrance selection competition might push it even higher. So, if the high schools are officially held to B1 standard, there is a gap.

The gap is filled mostly with private language classes, private tutors, or self study. No normal schools systematically get even the poorer students to B2 or C1. The fact that my highschool had quite a large amount of those successes (at least in English, small in German and French) was given by the fact that IQ over 130 was pretty much the standard, and most parents were mostly not poor (=semesters abroad, private tutors, etc). Few people got to the level just with the school offered resources even in such an exceptional environment, that wasn't totally ruined even by the cases of the few students kept at the school only through bribery.

Not that I want to doubt your experience, but I find it rather amazing, if your classmates were able to make it only through the school means. That, or perhaps the entry level at university was lower (or in other words: was adapted to the expected highschool results).

I agree with basically everything that Cavesa wrote (we probably share some “Central European” perspective on the issue of foreign languages in schools).
...
In high school, the English teacher didn’t bully us at least but she didn’t conduct a single lesson during 4 years. The thing is that teachers knew that 90% of kids take private tutoring lessons anyway or take classes in the evenings at "English language schools" that cost tons of money, so why try if someone else is doing the job you’re supposed to do? The responsibility for developing skills was delegated to parents who had to (and probably still have to) make important financial investments so that their kids can learn English. It was of course unfair towards those parents who couldn’t afford that (including mine, they work in public sector where salaries stagnated for years and years around ‘00). I learned English by myself in spite of school, not thanks to it.

Yes, this is a very common issue. On one hand, it is very hard for the teacher to have a very heterogenous class. On the other hand, it is totally logical, that the parents pay for extra classes, especially given the low quality in many schools.

I really wish languages (and all the other subjects too) had a way to self study or private tutor, and then test out. At all the levels of education. It would solve the problem with overcrowded classes, give the teacher more time for those in need, and save the more motivated students a lot of suffering.

You and me are the exceptions, who got to the goal through self study, just for different reasons. My dad actually had the money and there were some attempts on private classes, but it didn't work for me. Not only was I simply not a class type, and the summer class was very distant from the expectations at school. I was easily the best in the summer group class, and then again the worst back at school, with the bully shouting at me and making me consider jumping out of the window several times a weak. My turning point was self studying a grammar book to succeed at the new regrouping halfway through high school (to get to the best group, as I knew the devil was not gonna teach that) and then tons of input afterwards.

But vast majority of my classmates who got to C1 or C2 English by the end of highschool had indeed spent a semester or a year abroad, or had had tons of private tutoring or private classes in the more expensive English schools.

So there's no point in trying to evaluate the instructional quality of the classes. I got good instructional quality from my private tutoring sessions before school, so I can imagine class would have also been high quality if the barn animals had been expelled and left behind the 5 students who were interested in their educations. But I'll never know.

Considering you could get private tutoring I wonder why you went to such a bad school at all.

In many countries, you cannot simply choose a school. Private ones are illegal, not accessible, or sometimes worse than the public ones (in Prague, a few private highschools are much better than the standard, but others are simply for lazy/stupid rich kids). Or some countries force the kids to go to the nearest school.

Private language classes are one of the few widely accepted and available ways to do something about the school quality. Most parents won't pay private tutoring for all the subjects (it would also be impossible to come home from school at 17h and then do private tutoring of everything and then study two totally different curricula), but they are more likely to pay for the languages. It is seen as much more of an investment, than the rest of the classes.

[Le Baron]

And what was the entry level? That matters a lot. I hear that some american universities let you start a normal language degree from zero language skill. I've met a few people studying those degrees, who were about to graduate with B1ish French. That is not the standard everywhere. In most language degrees at the Czech universities (and it seems to be the european standard), the starting level (for all the major languages, not the niche ones) is B2, and sometimes the entrance selection competition might push it even higher. So, if the high schools are officially held to B1 standard, there is a gap.

Just for clarity, the bit quoted as me is what you originally wrote. It's just a mix-up with the quotes!

I can't speak about the U.S. university system, I didn't go through it. I can speak about the UK system and the Belgian/Dutch where I've worked. The people I knew when I attended uni myself were easily B2 and above starting their degrees, though I'd say the admissions bar started to be lowered. In Belgium I found that students aren't all B2 when starting degrees and neither are they in NL. Aside from English a lot of students and school pupils are rather weak in foreign languages.

In many countries, you cannot simply choose a school. Private ones are illegal, not accessible, or sometimes worse than the public ones (in Prague, a few private highschools are much better than the standard, but others are simply for lazy/stupid rich kids). Or some countries force the kids to go to the nearest school.

That's how it worked and works in the UK. 99% of people go to state schools. Private schools are financially out of reach of most people. However, the person I replied to said they were able to receive private tutoring making up for poor schooling. I didn't need that (and couldn't get it) when I was at a state secondary school because the language tuition was adequate/good.

[tastyonions]

Pretty much any American university (I hesitate to say "every" but it's probably pretty close) will let you start a language degree or any other degree from zero. I guess that's got pros and cons but I think I like the idea on balance.

[Le Baron]

Pretty much any American university (I hesitate to say "every" but it's probably pretty close) will let you start a language degree or any other degree from zero. I guess that's got pros and cons but I think I like the idea on balance.

Any degree?! Surely a student would need to have done some level of prior study in order to understand the degree level material? If I had turned up for my economics degree from a position of zero I wouldn't have lasted the week. Just the maths alone would have eliminated me.

[aokoye]

Yes, this is the issue I'm hoping to address. I'd ask: four years at how many hours a week, a day? And how much effort outside school? Consider that someone studying e.g. the flute at school, will also be spending countless hours practising outside of active lessons. Playing in ensembles and the like, training for performance exams. At school for the vast majority languages are just another block of time at school. If there's no special interest you turn up, do the stuff and then leave and don't think about it again until its time for another lesson.

As someone who played flute pretty seriously from the age of 10-21 I would argue that, in the US (and from what I've heard Canada as well) the standard for instrumental music at most middle and high schools schools is actually likely fairly comparable to that of foreign and/or second language classes in those same schools. Practicing a few hours a week (as someone who replied to you mentioned) will not end in that person becoming an especially talented musician and most middle and high school ensembles aren't especially great. I went to schools middle and high schools with relatively okay music programs, the only places I was actually challenged as a musician was in private lessons and music ensembles I took part in during the school year and summer outside of school. Yes I practiced an hour a day most days of the week until I went to college (and then more in college), and that far exceeded the expectations of my middle and high school band directors. I did a quick google and found a forum thread that is more or less in agreement with the "kids who aren't serious about music are practicing far less than an hour a day" thought https://www.city-data.com/forum/educati ... -kids.html

In the US (or at the very least in my state) where you will see what you described in choir programs - but that's mostly built into the school day (or really in "zero period" before the first classes of the day start). It isn't uncommon here for students in public schools with relatively good choral programs to be able to rehearse 4 to 5 days a week and then I have no idea how much said choristers are practicing at home. Band (and orchestra) on the other hand - it's treated similarly if not worse (again, in the US) than languages and has been for decades.

[aokoye]

Pretty much any American university (I hesitate to say "every" but it's probably pretty close) will let you start a language degree or any other degree from zero. I guess that's got pros and cons but I think I like the idea on balance.

Any degree?! Surely a student would need to have done some level of prior study in order to understand the degree level material? If I had turned up for my economics degree from a position of zero I wouldn't have lasted the week. Just the maths alone would have eliminated me.

Yes, in the US outside of performing and fine arts, you can get a bachelor's degree in just about anything starting from zero. There are some exceptions, but those are exceptions and not the norm. For instance, no one would expect someone who is getting a BA in psychology (which you can't do much with but very much sets you up very well for a masters degree in the field) to have a background in psychology or sociology coming out of secondary school.

Mind you, it is expected that students going into post-secondary education will have passed classes in math, sciences, English, sometimes two years of a foreign language. But yeah - there are plenty of freshmen starting CS degrees with little to no previous knowledge of CS (that i suspect is becoming more and more rare with the ease of access to that in primary and secondary school mind you - but it's by no means a requirement).

It also might be worth noting that in the US most bachelors programs are four years, not three years as is the case in some parts of the world.

[Klara]

Having read all the posts on this topic, I must say, that my school language experience was a completely different one. To me, it was the teacher's job to teach and the pupils job to learn. There were of course teachers I liked more than others but that was not their fault, they all did their job in teaching stuff - sadly, most pupils were not so keen on learning it.

By the age of 10, my English classes started and I was over the moon! Me, a little pumpkin girl from a small village had the opportunity to learn a foreign language! Although I found the progress painfully slow, I did not complain, I just worked with the content back and for until something new was introduced.

In the first year, after we learned the past tenses, we should write 1 or 2 sentences about our last weekend activities. I somehow misunderstood the assigment and thought we should write 1 and a half pages. And with my then very limited vocabulary I did write exactly 1.5 pages. When I gave the teacher my homework, she looked at me as if I were an alien - I never forget her facial expression

Five years later when I left school, I did speak and write English fluently without a heavy German accent. The only problem was, that I felt inferior because I only attended a simple school (no Gymnasium with Abitur) and I thought that everyone else from higher education had learned much more words than me.

So, in essence, I never blamed a school or a teacher for my learning outcome. It was me, who was in charge and I loved that!