If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

General discussion about learning languages
Cavesa
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:14 pm

raoulhjo wrote:What I have complained about in the beginner courses is the choice of words. Too many words don't belong to the basic vocabulary but instead to specialised domains. I had to make my own frequency list of words.


I know of one textbook, that gives a main set of words, and then an extra set of thematic words. So, you can choose. I am more for learning the "not basic" words too, because I usually don't plant to stop learning at A2, so it is good to learn some of the more advanced vocab right away.

My ideal course would of course offer that too. :-)
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby Granrey » Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:05 am

Cainntear wrote:
Granrey wrote:There are free podcasts that resemble a classroom.

You don't even need a podcast for that -- you can get a big piece of paper and draw a picture that resembles a classroom. It'll miss all the important stuff that goes with actually being in an actual classroom, mind, but then so do podcasts!

when I mean ressembles a classroom it means you have a student pronouncing something, asking questions, etc and a teacher correcting and answering questions from a student.

I'm currently listening a podcast like that named : "coffee break french" in which in the first two seasons is about a journey between a french student and her tutor. I really regret not getting in touch with it sooner.

I'll be searching for other similar podcasts.
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:30 pm

I've used quite a few courses over the years and the best one I feel I ever used was Destinos: An Introduction to Spanish.

While I am a fan of the Assimil courses, generally speaking, I've never used them as prescribed and I do admit they have their limitations, but they are neat little gems packed with a lot of useable content. I've also enjoyed the Hugo In 3 Months series quite a bit early on as a beginner and certainly make use of many an audio course including the common ones Michel Thomas (great for getting one to speak, especially using a variety of verb forms) and Pimsleur (great to start with when looking to train speech/pronunciation). It's kind of unfair to compare these latter courses (as with Teach Yourself, Colloquial and other similar length courses) to a massive course like Destinos (or perhaps it's not too far behind French equivalent French in Action) both designed for a full year of university level study.

What makes Destinos and French in Action so good? Well, I do feel that FIA could lose me at times in analysis of documents at a beginner's level that requires the patience of a more advance learner as you reply to some tedious analytical questions. For this reason, I'll focus on Destinos....

What set's it apart? Well, it has everything the smaller courses have - grammar, vocabulary, drills/questions/exercises, and it also has a story, an intriguing one. And I mustn't forgot the sheer size of this course, since when describing a course that's going to be the best of the best, imo it needs to be comprehensive/big/massive even! Destinos also presents language through a great deal of video, audio, reading and writing exercises.

For me personally, focus on pronunciation is always important and of course Destinos does this. I think that pronunciation should be focused on in the beginning and extended on periodically throughout the duration of a course with finer details. Destinos does this well perhaps but with little focus at the beginning, but as it's Spanish and pronunciation is generally predictable (there are subtle complexities nonetheless) it's of no detriment to the course. There are plenty of exercises which vary in style, focus on grammar, focus on vocabulary and change enough to keep one enticed into progressing.

Another interesting thing with Destinos was the use of a 3-tier system of language in the videos. They contained easy Spanish spoken by the narrator and then there were two more 'levels' of speech in the videos with the interactions between characters in the series being spoken faster and more difficult to understand. This 'tiered-system' gives learners (or the same learner at different periods in their learning) the ability to take something from most videos depending on how accomplished they are or how much detail they want to focus on.

To provide some background, at various times and to varying degrees of duration and intensity I've studied German, Spanish, Dutch, French and Norwegian with a tiny introduction to Arabic as well. It matters as experience with various languages tends to provide feedback as you realise with each language what is important/appreciated when using various courses. Learning French taught me that I'd appreciate phonetic IPA transcription throughout a beginner's course. In the beginning for every word, later this would only be necessary for trickier words or where subtle differences in pronunciation are not clear. For Dutch and Spanish this level of phonetic transcription wouldn't be necessary for as long as for French (my opinion of course). For Norwegian, I'd really appreciate any course to be marked with the most common use (Oslo dialect) where/how one would use the two tones present for most speakers from that part of the country. This would save a learner like me hours upon hours of tedious dictionary look-ups.



So what do you need to make a great language course?

*either a decent story that keeps one interested or perhaps like Assimil, bite-sized interesting lessons that keep you wanting more (for a bigger course this could just be one component of the overall material).

*focus on pronunciation in the beginning and throughout - with phonetic transcription based on IPA and tone markings for tonal languages as per the language's complexities. One could consider some introduction to variations in pronunciation heard in other regions/countries so that the student becomes aware of some of the deviations from the standard most commonly taught versions of the language. However, this is not too important, at least not in the very early stages.

*audio (a bonus would be a portion of each lesson that's car/commute/exercise-friendly and could be used outside of the regular study for review). Another bonus would to always have transcripts to refer to in case of difficulty with aural comprehension.

*video would certainly add to the experience - transcripts and or subtitles. Actually having just read iguanamon's suggestions and having used Yabla in the past, a hover-over translation (with conjugations for verbs, phonetics and other forms such as m/f/n for adjectives, plural forms and so on) would be a great addition. For lovers of SRS, like Yabla perhaps snippets of video could be chosen and gamification and SRS abilities added like is the case with Yabla (online short video learning system for languages for anyone not in the know).

*reading - graded, increasing with difficulty as the course progresses.

*writing - also level appropriate according to where one is in the course.

*varied activities and plenty of them that take the place of FSI like drills (which will be more enticing to the learner if not dry, and simply cover all learned content). I think the sheer volume of content with Destinos helped here, whereas I have found the questions in the Assimil lessons to be insufficient - I want more questions/drills, which is in part why I needed to constantly review lessons.

*vocabulary lists (I often use these to review learned vocabulary)

*grammar explanations with exercises that follow and put into practise the newly learned concepts.

*cultural aspects/notes (including historical events, culturally important figures and the environment) always draw the learner in when they can get to know the culture(s), country/countries and peoples better. Attractive images would make for a more inviting course.

*plenty of dialogues - video, audio, written.

*like a spaced repetition-like system (but hidden in the activities, dialogues, general content), continued application of learned concepts and forms after their introduction.

*Immersion? No, I don't feel it's needed. Meaning, imo, there's no need for it to be monolingual. Certainly by the end, it would be predominantly monolingual in the textbook/workbook(s), but in the beginning most content in the book(s) would be translated, with gradually less and less of this being necessary as the learner uses more and more learned content and grasps the newer content easier without the crutch of translation being so important.


------------------------------------
I really do feel that almost all of the above was present with Destinos, which illustrates why I draw on my experience with the course when describing what I feel is a comprehensive language course.
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:36 pm

24 Oct 2017, rdearman posted this topic:
What is the perfect language course?
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby Kraut » Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:31 pm

https://github.com/oaprograms/lingo-player
https://oaprograms.github.io/lingo-player/
It would be nice to have Lingo Player back working again completely since it lost its translate function. Though as it is it's still very useful and although its successors "Language Reactor" etc have more functions (well ..too many and constantly being reworked and ..ugly!!.) It's open source!
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How it works:

Let's say you are learning Spanish:

Open a Spanish movie, with Spanish subtitles, and optionally 2nd subtitles in your language.
Hover over any word to see translations to your language, click on it hear it and to save it to dictionary.
You can mark words with 4 levels of familiarity (New - red, Recognized - orange, Familiar - yellow and Known - green)
You can look up list of saved words any time and read subtitles in subtitle listing mode.

.--------------------
with a click you can move the subtitle line forward or backward and listen to the audio separately
..........
you can call up a page to view the text + translation bidirectionally
overall all the tools are very cleverly placed and easy to operate, the eye is centered on the bottom centre
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby emk » Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:01 pm

Kraut wrote:Though as it is it's still very useful and although its successors "Language Reactor" etc have more functions (well ..too many and constantly being reworked and ..ugly!!.) It's open source!

This is very nice. Does it have SRS integration?

The problem with Subs2SRS is that it's fantastic at the A levels, when everything is unfamiliar. But once you get past B1, the sheer effort required to find accurate, aligned subtitles and to make cards becomes way too much work for too few cards. I strongly suspect that I could benefit from Subs2SRS-like cards even now, especially for regional accents and extremely colloquial language. But it's just not worth it, in terms of time.

But tools like Lingo Player could be extremely promising if they could automatically make Subs2SRS-like cards—and if they integrated with an SRS system with more appropriate defaults than Anki. I haven't been paying any attention to this space for years—does anyone have a really good video-to-SRS pipeline integrated into a player these days?

I do still want to write up my ideas for good beginner course, with an emphasis on getting to solid intermediate listening skills sooner. Soon, I hope!
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby sorata225 » Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:10 pm

@emk About the video to SRS. Yes we do have asbplayer. You can use that with something like Yomitan or Yezichak (Yezichak is getting merged with Yomitan).

What I personally use in Android is an app called Jidoujisho. It is available for Japanese and English but I've tested and found it can also be used with some other languages like Vietnamese (The language must be set to Japanese). This can also be used for reading epub/htmlz books (although I'm hearing Lute a lot these days).

I haven't read through all the posts here so it is possible someone else mentioned it already. Language Reactor is a pretty famous tool many people use nowadays.

This is my first post here actually. Quite surprised by how long this thread became. I mostly spend my time in discord servers (japanese). I'm too young so never have used such forums. Regarding the thread topic, are people here aware https://refold.la/roadmap and their method?

It's a input based method and is quite popular among Japanese learners (who are usually really young and tech savvy).
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby sorata225 » Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:15 pm

emk wrote:
Kraut wrote:Though as it is it's still very useful and although its successors "Language Reactor" etc have more functions (well ..too many and constantly being reworked and ..ugly!!.) It's open source!

This is very nice. Does it have SRS integration?

The problem with Subs2SRS is that it's fantastic at the A levels, when everything is unfamiliar. But once you get past B1, the sheer effort required to find accurate, aligned subtitles and to make cards becomes way too much work for too few cards. I strongly suspect that I could benefit from Subs2SRS-like cards even now, especially for regional accents and extremely colloquial language. But it's just not worth it, in terms of time.

But tools like Lingo Player could be extremely promising if they could automatically make Subs2SRS-like cards—and if they integrated with an SRS system with more appropriate defaults than Anki. I haven't been paying any attention to this space for years—does anyone have a really good video-to-SRS pipeline integrated into a player these days?

I do still want to write up my ideas for good beginner course, with an emphasis on getting to solid intermediate listening skills sooner. Soon, I hope!



Are you aware that whisper can make pretty accurate subtitles? I was trying to find subs for Made in Abyss when I found a file with whisper generated ones. To my surprise, even for Japanese it was very accurate. And I'm quite sure it was not modified after generation. The reason being the show featured a conlang for the inhabitants of "Abyss" and as expected the AI tried to transcribe them in Japanese. :lol:
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby Kraut » Sat Jan 27, 2024 11:44 pm

sorata225 wrote:
emk wrote:
Kraut wrote:Though as it is it's still very useful and although its successors "Language Reactor" etc have more functions (well ..too many and constantly being reworked and ..ugly!!.) It's open source!

This is very nice. Does it have SRS integration?

The problem with Subs2SRS is that it's fantastic at the A levels, when everything is unfamiliar. But once you get past B1, the sheer effort required to find accurate, aligned subtitles and to make cards becomes way too much work for too few cards. I strongly suspect that I could benefit from Subs2SRS-like cards even now, especially for regional accents and extremely colloquial language. But it's just not worth it, in terms of time.

But tools like Lingo Player could be extremely promising if they could automatically make Subs2SRS-like cards—and if they integrated with an SRS system with more appropriate defaults than Anki. I haven't been paying any attention to this space for years—does anyone have a really good video-to-SRS pipeline integrated into a player these days?

I do still want to write up my ideas for good beginner course, with an emphasis on getting to solid intermediate listening skills sooner. Soon, I hope!



Are you aware that whisper can make pretty accurate subtitles? I was trying to find subs for Made in Abyss when I found a file with whisper generated ones. To my surprise, even for Japanese it was very accurate. And I'm quite sure it was not modified after generation. The reason being the show featured a conlang for the inhabitants of "Abyss" and as expected the AI tried to transcribe them in Japanese. :lol:

Yeah, there are also "freesubtitles", "voscribe, "downsub", "subtitles translator" ....
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Re: If you wanted to design a better beginner course than anything out there, what would you try?

Postby Cainntear » Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:14 pm

This might seem a bit off the wall, but...

Maybe the biggest problem we now have is that courses are increasingly being used as a single source, and designed as such...?

And maybe this is a cultural shift as things are going online...?

In the days of books, you would be more like to flip and switch between them as an when you needed to, and there would be a small cost to this, becuase you'd always need to make a decision as to where and when to switch.

Now we've got apps that actively track your progress, and whether or not anything useful is done with that data, the fact that it is tracked makes it seem important. The perceived cost of switching is now greater, because app A won't track what you do in app B.

Worse, you might not be able to go to unit 5 of app B without doing units 1-4 first, and you similarly might not be able to skip unit 7 of app A, even if that covers nothing outside of app B unit 5.

Using more than one resource is now actively militated against -- we're in an age where digital courses are arguably worse than books. And this probably isn't coincidence: courseware might now be following the trend towards "vendor lock-in" (i.e. "I've bought from this vendor before, so I must continue to buy from this vendor" -- think about how much inertia you've got to overcome to ditch iPhones in favour of Android ).

Which would be alright if it wasn't for the fact that the reason people flip between courses is that they kind of needed to. A weakness in a course was only acceptable because you could fill the gap with something else; but locking them in to your course makes it's weaknesses even more obvious. (Duolingo for teachers, j'accuse!)
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