Learn a language faster (article)

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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby Cainntear » Tue May 30, 2023 9:13 pm

fromaalborg1 wrote:"3. Diglot Weave method
The Diglot Weave method is a great way to help you with your vocabulary.

It involves inserting words from a foreign language into a sentence in a language you already know. "

Does anyone use this method?

It sounds to me like an awful idea (although the "article" doesn't even bother to give enough information to actually know what it is).

The problems I have with it are multiple:

Substituting words is a terrible translation technique, as you end up with loads of L1 interference in the grammar and phraseology. Consider, for example, that Gaelic for "I love you" is "Tha gaol agam ort" -- hyperliterally "Is love at-me on-you". Note that love here is a noun, not a verb. How are you expected to do a "diglot weave" with that?

A diglot weave probably messes with pronunciation. How do you maintain target phonology if you have first language phonology always pulling you away? Personally I try to avoid phrases like "my name is..." and "I come from..." because my experience in high school was that everyone's pronunciation in French appeared to get worse when they said something that would have felt ridiculous to them: "Je m'appelle Callum McPeak. J'habite à Kirknewton."I mean, hell, you'd expect "jay ons ons" after that, because you've pushed the kid squarely into L1 phonology by that point.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue May 30, 2023 9:31 pm

tastyonions wrote:Isn't there a book or book series that starts out in English and gradually transitions into Spanish?


Somewhere in the mess I have the entire 50 volume NU-metoden series published by Niloé. They're all classic works (adapted, no doubt), in Swedish, with parts of the text in English. In the first book (Robinson Kruse) there is perhaps one English word per page, then it's gradually increased so the final book (Korallön) has an entire chapter in English.

They also published a series like this in German, and I think I've seen one in French as well.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby Sae » Tue May 30, 2023 10:14 pm

I have not had experience trying the method.

I think where I have found word substitutions to be useful is if I need to finish a train of thought and it's better I do it uninterrupted and this is usually in the context of lessons, where I might go over the missing words immediately after and complete it with all the right pieces and repeat it. Though of course, it's what I can put words that are in English and fortunately that is doable with Vietnamese's grammar structure. But it is here where completing the train of thought is more important than having all the right words up front and adding them later.

I might be more limited with Mongolian & Tuvan, but if I already know the pieces and maybe I don't know a certain word, the same idea applies, and I can make any changes based on grammar rulle if I must, but I've not really been doing speaking practice to be able to testify.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby leosmith » Wed May 31, 2023 12:37 am

fromaalborg1 wrote:The Diglot Weave method is a great way to help you with your vocabulary. It involves inserting words from a foreign language into a sentence in a language you already know.
Code switching is common in many languages. Let's make it into a method and call it the "Diglot Weave". Bald people will love it! This method is second only to the "Tarzan" method. It no good.

AndyMeg wrote:"Talk To Me In Korean" seems to try to do something along the lines of the Diglot Weave method:
Imo, that's just fill in the blanks, or anki would call it "Cloze Deletion". What they are talking about is taking an L1 sentence but replacing a word/some words with L2. for example:
L1 = I like dogs.
Diglot Weave = I like 강아지.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby Cainntear » Wed May 31, 2023 6:29 am

leosmith wrote:L1 = I like dogs.
Diglot Weave = I like 강아지.

That's probably an even more fundamental example of the idiom/phraseology problem.

I like dogs => *yo quiero perros
Me gustan los perros => *Me find_tasty the dogs

Even French, which is close to French has the problem that "j'aime" means both "I like" and "I love".
It's one thing to switch "j'aime les chiens" to "*I like the dogs" (article error may be overlooked as it's not a social problem) but it's totally different to accidentally indicate a romantic attachment to an animal...
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby Sae » Wed May 31, 2023 10:53 am

Curious about it and I started reading more about it. And it does seem there are mixed views about it's success, mixed with studies showing better test results in students, though tests =/= learning, I was a B student in German and my German sucks and I would be curious by the quality of the speakers in those studies.

But I wonder if there is a limited capacity whereby it is useful? I read some argument how it works better for kids vs adults. And at a glance, it sounds more digestible and friendlier to people starting out.

I can maybe see some logic for vocabulary building or introducing new grammar concepts in a way you already have context you understand.

For example if I wrote:
"Cat of mine eats food tasty" you have a sentence in the Vietnamese grammar structure and you can ascertain what it means without any Vietnamese.

And you can work in words like
"Mèo of mine , ăn food ngon"

It can maybe introduce concepts without the baggage of knowing all parts. But I don't see it sustainable the more complex that language gets, because there are translations from Vietnamese into English that convey the same ideas or message without the same words and you have to learn how to think like a Vietnamese and you can't do that with English terms. However, I found references to Japanese books advertised with this method, so I guess I would also be curious how that progresses the more complicated Japanese gets or whether it would still apply English equivalency rather than thinking like a Japanese speaker.

And I saw an example where it introduced things like verb conjugation. Heck, I've seen a couple of Turkic speakers make facetious comments about Turkifying English and giving examples of how things like agglutination might work in English, which those examples reminded me of. But it may be a way of demonstrating how it works in familiar terms first.

Using a Tuvan accusative case example: "I remember my mountainsny". Then apply pluralisation, "I remember my mountainlarny", then apply possession, "I remember mountainlarymny" and the word "mountain" as "I remember daglarymny". Apply Tuvan word order, "daglarymny remember I" and then the full translation "Daglarymny saktyr men".

But I am not sure it works as a learning method because I can see potential problems already. But as a demonstrative technique to new concepts or ideas? Maybe. It does feel a little more digestible.

Cainntear wrote:
leosmith wrote:L1 = I like dogs.
Diglot Weave = I like 강아지.

That's probably an even more fundamental example of the idiom/phraseology problem.

I like dogs => *yo quiero perros
Me gustan los perros => *Me find_tasty the dogs

Even French, which is close to French has the problem that "j'aime" means both "I like" and "I love".
It's one thing to switch "j'aime les chiens" to "*I like the dogs" (article error may be overlooked as it's not a social problem) but it's totally different to accidentally indicate a romantic attachment to an animal...


There's examples of this in Vietnamese too. And I think a danger to account for is that we have words with different meanings in different contexts.

Like Vietnamese uses classifier words. Animals (including humans) have a classifier of "con", so let's say:
"Anh thích con héo của anh"
It means I like my pig.
So we do
"I like con héo of mine" so we figure out "con héo" means pig.

But we also learn "I eat a banana"
"Anh ăn một quả chuối"

And you go ahah, so I can say "Anh thích ăn con héo"
And think it means "I like eating pig" and be confused why a Vietnamese person looks at you in horror.

"Con" is a classifier used when the animal is alive. It is a different classifier when it is food. It sounds you like to eat live pigs.

I guess you could combat that by showing what it is when it's food, but even then without explicitly knowing the difference you still might make the mistake because it could be interpreted as the difference between "I like eating pig" and "I like eating pork" in English where the same meaning is conveyed.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby Carl » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:45 am

I regularly converse online with an Indian woman who uses reverse diglot weave when speaking German. She talks pretty fast, mostly in German, but fearlessly, without a pause, throws in English words when she doesn't know the German. I haven't spoken with her over a long enough period to get a sense of whether this is an impediment to her learning or something that helps her to fluency in pure German faster. She does manage to produce more German than i do in the same amount of time, even if some of her German isn't German.

I confess to a bit of the same--when I get stuck for a German word, I'll sometimes Germanicize a Swedish or English word and hope for the best. It often seems to work, but it also gets me some strange looks sometimes.

If you follow one of the links in the article rdearman posted, it takes you to an interesting article on diglot weave (https://www.barefootteflteacher.com/p/teach-vocabulary-with-the-diglot), including a story that taught me some Chinese through diglot weave on Little Red Riding Hood, why Jabberwocky doesn't work as diglot weave, how to write good diglot weave stories, and some resources that use diglot weave well. It even has links (that I didn't follow) that it says are to studies showing diglot weave is at least as good as some other language teaching methods, including spaced repetition.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby Cainntear » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:32 pm

Carl wrote:I regularly converse online with an Indian woman who uses reverse diglot weave when speaking German. She talks pretty fast, mostly in German, but fearlessly, without a pause, throws in English words when she doesn't know the German. I haven't spoken with her over a long enough period to get a sense of whether this is an impediment to her learning or something that helps her to fluency in pure German faster. She does manage to produce more German than i do in the same amount of time, even if some of her German isn't German.

That's not a diglot weave. She's either embedding known words in another language to substitute for unknown words, which is a form of code switching.

Diglot weave is something very specific, and calling that "reverse diglot weave" makes as much sense as describing driving along a straight road as "a reverse power slide".

I confess to a bit of the same--when I get stuck for a German word, I'll sometimes Germanicize a Swedish or English word and hope for the best. It often seems to work, but it also gets me some strange looks sometimes.

Yes it does, but it's fundamentally different from a diglot weave.

If you follow one of the links in the article rdearman posted, it takes you to an interesting article on diglot weave (https://www.barefootteflteacher.com/p/teach-vocabulary-with-the-diglot), including a story that taught me some Chinese through diglot weave on Little Red Riding Hood, why Jabberwocky doesn't work as diglot weave, how to write good diglot weave stories, and some resources that use diglot weave well. It even has links (that I didn't follow) that it says are to studies showing diglot weave is at least as good as some other language teaching methods, including spaced repetition.

Yes.
The core point of a diglot weave is to make vocabulary learning easier through reducing the variables. I'm sure it does work. But in reality, it's only underlying the problem that grammar and vocabulary mutually interfere with each other. Learning vocabulary is easy, because we do it every day; learning grammar is hard, because we don't. Diglot weave works because it gets rid of the grammar.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:32 pm

Cainntear wrote:Learning vocabulary is easy, because we do it every day; learning grammar is hard, because we don't. Diglot weave works because it gets rid of the grammar.

Does it do anything to help learn the target grammar? Certainly not the vocabulary I'd imagine.
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Re: Learn a language faster (article)

Postby tastyonions » Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:49 pm

I guess it might help a bit with grammar when the grammar is encoded in the morphology, e.g. conjugations, declensions, participle agreement. And to the extent that it is, it wouldn't be completely true that a diglot weave would get rid of grammar. But it certainly limits what you can do with syntax.
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