"Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

General discussion about learning languages
jeffers
Blue Belt
Posts: 843
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:12 pm
Location: UK
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Hindi (A2-B1)

Learning: The above, plus French (A2-B1), German (A1), Ancient Greek (?), Sanskrit (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19785
x 2746
Contact:

"Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby jeffers » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:20 am

Share things that you were taught as a beginner that turned out not to be true. I don't mean marketing lies like "Learn Korean in 5 minutes a day", or "Just Listen 'n' Learn". I mean things you were told about your language that you found out later were either just wrong, or that you found out were a lot more complicated or nuanced.

I have two examples from French that I think about every time a counter example comes up, which is quite frequently:
  • Never say "Je suis [name]" to introduce yourself. Always say "Je m'appelle [name]". I occasionally heard counter examples of this, but I realized it really wasn't a hard rule when I listened to a podcast series in which a journalist walked along the banks of the Seine describing the area and having conversations with people. I began to keep an informal tally, and people he just walked up to were more likely to say "Je suis [name]" by quite a large margin. I still accept that in a formal situations, "Je m'appelle" is more appropriate, but the statement "French people never say Je suis to introduce themselves" is evidently wrong.
  • Un autre vs encore un. Michel Thomas said that if you want another coffee you must say "Encore un café" because if you say "un autre café" it means you want a different coffee. I believe the same fact was repeated on Frenchpod101. But when I watch TV series and films and someone wants another drink in a bar or café it seems to me they almost always simply say "un autre" and they are given one more of the same drink.

What examples can you remember of things you were told that native speakers "never do" or "always do" which turned out not to be true?
14 x
Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien (roughly, the perfect is the enemy of the good)

French SC Books: 0 / 5000 (0/5000 pp)
French SC Films: 0 / 9000 (0/9000 mins)

User avatar
tungemål
Blue Belt
Posts: 947
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Location: Norway
Languages: Norwegian (N)
English, German, Spanish, Japanese, Dutch, Polish
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17672
x 2181

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby tungemål » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:44 am

jeffers wrote:[*]Un autre vs encore un. Michel Thomas said that if you want another coffee you must say "Encore un café" because if you say "un autre café" it means you want a different coffee. I believe the same fact was repeated on Frenchpod101. But when I watch TV series and films and someone wants another drink in a bar or café it seems to me they almost always simply say "un autre" and they are given one more of the same drink.


Haha. I don't study French but I'm guessing that's said to illustrate the difference between autre and encore. I'll try this in a cafe:

- another coffee, please
- here you are.
- What? This is the same kind of coffee. I specifically said I wanted an other one! or I would've said "one more coffee, please".
3 x

Cainntear
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3449
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Scotland
Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc
x 8602
Contact:

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby Cainntear » Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:33 am

jeffers wrote:Share things that you were taught as a beginner that turned out not to be true. I don't mean marketing lies like "Learn Korean in 5 minutes a day", or "Just Listen 'n' Learn". I mean things you were told about your language that you found out later were either just wrong, or that you found out were a lot more complicated or nuanced.


I just commented in another thread how as a result of recording everything in order, I found that courses tended to accidentally make a distinction between he and she forms that involved "he" never being stressed, but "she" always being stressed (a subconscious "contrast emphasis" on the part of the speaker, presumably.

I have two examples from French that I think about every time a counter example comes up, which is quite frequently:
  • Never say "Je suis [name]" to introduce yourself. Always say "Je m'appelle [name]". I occasionally heard counter examples of this, but I realized it really wasn't a hard rule when I listened to a podcast series in which a journalist walked along the banks of the Seine describing the area and having conversations with people. I began to keep an informal tally, and people he just walked up to were more likely to say "Je suis [name]" by quite a large margin. I still accept that in a formal situations, "Je m'appelle" is more appropriate, but the statement "French people never say Je suis to introduce themselves" is evidently wrong.

Good one, that. "I'm called" was traditionally similarly overtaught in English, but it's really all in ignorance of the pragmatics of language.
The issue here is that "je m'appelle..."/"I'm called..." isn't introducing yourself, it's informing someone of your name; the sentence highlights its own purpose.

"I'm Cainntear" places more importance on me, and my name becomes incidental.

Although I wonder whether sociologists are likely to chalk this up as a language change led by our increasing level of focus on the self...
5 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7223
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23093
Contact:

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby rdearman » Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:26 pm

In the Pimsleur Korean course, they say something like: 배고프 니? (are you hungry/have you eaten) and that this is a common greeting in Korean and a rhetorical question. In my conversations which my language exchange partners, they told me, "We never say that, unless we want to invite you to lunch or something."

They did admit this might have been said 50-75 years ago... but they don't think anyone says this now.
8 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9317

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby Le Baron » Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:08 pm

At the Dutch language school I had a 'disagreement' with the tutor. She said we shouldn't say things like 'niet onmogelijk' (not impossible), that's the most common one, or 'niet ongekend' (not unknown). And we had a sheet with all this explained, but I said it was wrong. That the same thing existed in English and other languages and it was about taking the claim - impossible, unknown' - and denying it in a reply. Doesn't everyone do this? It's nuance of speech/argument.

She went on a winding, ranty sort of explanation involving Aristotle. However I stuck to my guns and said it didn't matter what Aristotle thought because he's dead and doesn't speak Dutch anyway. The reason for my boldness was by that time I'd already heard a lot of Dutch and heard dozens of people say 'niet onmogelijk' and I'm sure the tutor probably said it herself.

Jeffers's French examples are no doubt typical. Probably the tip of the iceberg as well.
5 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3077
Contact:

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby leosmith » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:40 pm

Unfortunately, I can't remember specific examples since I did them so long ago, but most beginner audio programs had a few items which I later found out were false or misleading. One example I can remember, which doesn't qualify because I already knew it beforehand, was in Pimsleur Swahili. They said saa mbili meant "eight o'clock", which is true. They said saa meant "hour", which is also true, but then they tried to teach me that mbili meant "eight" which is false. Swahili time is offset by six hours, and mbili means "two" in any other context. Why on earth they wouldn't explain this remains a mystery to me.
1 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9317

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby Le Baron » Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:07 pm

leosmith wrote:but then they tried to teach me that mbili meant "eight" which is false.

Did they literally say that or indicate that 'hour two' was just equal to eight in time as we know it?
0 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3077
Contact:

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby leosmith » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:58 pm

Le Baron wrote:Did they literally say that or indicate that 'hour two' was just equal to eight in time as we know it?
They literally said mbili means "eight". It was isolated, and they never used it in other contexts, but still very misleading.
1 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9317

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby Le Baron » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:12 pm

leosmith wrote:
Le Baron wrote:Did they literally say that or indicate that 'hour two' was just equal to eight in time as we know it?
They literally said mbili means "eight". It was isolated, and they never used it in other contexts, but still very misleading.

Strange. Seems a very inadequate explanation. I wonder how many of their students were late for appointments? :lol:
3 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3077
Contact:

Re: "Lies my Beginner Courses Taught Me" (about the language, not marketing lies)

Postby leosmith » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:52 pm

Le Baron wrote:I wonder how many of their students were late for appointments? :lol:
Or early. :lol:
1 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], terracotta and 2 guests