'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

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Le Baron
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'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Le Baron » Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:16 pm

I surely don't even need to explain this, but will do or it will end up a very short post.

I don't even know how old the idea is of 'very short...just enough...quick & easy...' etc grammars, There are probably old ones. In fact I've seen one or two similar things on archive.org with decidedly unsexy covers, no bright colours or bullet points about 'communicating confidently' and everything to pass JLPT, Delf/Dalf, Dele, dilly-dally whatever. All in one 'package'.

My chief complaint is length. Is it justifiable for a book with the title 'all the grammar you really need' or 'just enough grammar' or even 'essential grammar', to be more than 200-250 pages? If one of these is more like 375 pages or getting on for 500, that's just taking the mickey isn't it? I had a Russian grammar years ago (grey cover, fat little book, title??) which was 500+ pages I couldn't find anything else and got this at a library book sale of withdrawn stock. But this was actually a comprehensive grammar. The kind of book you would be going through for a long time and probably only dipping into now and again as a reference book. The others can't have the same or almost the same number of pages and be 'concise'.

Over the years I have found grammar books that made sense to me and were actually useful. Like a Dutch one (Nederlands in hoofdlijnen) with the subtitle of a 'practical grammar' with only 75 pages covering pretty much everything you need at a truly practical and useful level. Aligning with the language learning rule-of-thumb: a little grammar and a lot of words. So how could a grammar with 4-times as many pages ever really be justifiably directed towards people just learning a language, rather than a university course delving into the finer points of grammar? I find this absurd and frankly annoying.

I'd like to see a list compiled, over time not compiled as part of a response, of truly 'practical' and concise grammars for all languages talked about here, Obviously anyone who doesn't believe in grammar consultation can safely ignore the entire foolish enterprise, but for those needing quick and clear help they're a gem. All 375-page candidates should be banished. Especially if they have 'course' in the title. Grammars aren't 'courses' they are reference books.
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Chung » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:24 pm

It sounds as those you really want those small handbooks on grammar (by small, I mean something that has fewer than 200 pages and with an area of about 8 in2 or 20 cm x 20 cm at most. Roughly speaking, the book could usually sit steadily in the palm of your hand without hanging past your fingertips by more than an inch or so. You basically sacrifice comprehensiveness for succinctness and portability in a book, yet for everyday language you do get what you need as long as you don't overthink or stay unsatisfied unless you get more detailed information or more examples illustrating the grammatical feature in one go).

Feel free to start another thread with suggestions, but here are some titles off the top of my head that I think would fit the bill.

- BBC French Grammar
- BBC German Grammar
- BBC Italian Grammar
- BBC Spanish Grammar (don't be thrown off by the title of "Talk Russian" in the link as it's an error on the part of Amazon.com. The ISBN is what counts and you can cross-check it with the same book on Amazon.co.uk)
- Any volume in the "Verbs and Essential Grammar" series. I have personal experience with the Hungarian, Norwegian and Polish volumes. The Polish volume is actually an extended version of the author's .pdf "Polish Grammar in a Nutshell" and a pared-down version of his 500-page reference grammar.
- Any volume in the German series of "Kurzgrammatik" by Angelika Landmann for Turkic languages. I have the volume for Kyrgyz on my shelf.
- Elementary Turkish (this breaks the rule for page numbers by eight, but a small handbook of 208 pages versus one of 200 really can't be a deal-breaker).
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Le Baron » Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:54 pm

Yes, the Kurzgrammatik is a fine contender. I actually have a version of that for German. It's pretty much the kind of thing I was thinking of. The Dutch one I mentioned is even more concise, but they're of the same type.

I like the BBC's older language texts - sadly now all liquidated. All of their German courses were good (I liked Deutsch Direkt which also had a TV series). I used some in my own time and actually we used one at school.

I can't click on the links to that website though. I won't go to it or buy anything from it.
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Iversen » Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:17 pm

I have got four 'essential' grammars from Routledge, and the smallest one has 218 pages, the largest more than 400 - but I like the format and the layout, and for me that's more important than a few pages more or less. Of course there are things in such grammars which I don't find essential, but I would still like to be able to cover all my languages with grammars in that bracket (around 250 to 300 pages) PLUS a small grammar per language as a supplement. And then I write my own green grammar sheets to summarize the most important things.

Those of my grammars that claim to be small actually ARE generally small. For instance my Langenscheidt Kurzggrammmatik for Russian has just 48 pages, and that's not enough. My "Kurz und Bündig" (also in German) for Polish is also at the lower end of the reasonable range, whereas Donald Swan with 496 pages is twice as thick as necessary. My Petit grammaire du Bulgarie by Feuillet has 218 pages, but they are small. Nevertheless it basically covers the language - although I had to supplement it with internet sources to really grasp the verbal morphology. At the other end of the scale I have a French Bon Usage by Grévisse with more than 1000 pages - and that's far too much for me now, but not while when I studied French at the university in the 70s.

PS: I have a few books that combine being a grammar with exercises , and I absolutely hate that genre. A grammar should tell me things, not ask me questions - but with just one exception those I chose to buy didn't call themselves "grammar" - sneaky bastards! (the exception was a teach yourself grammar for some language (maybe Latin?), but it seems that I have thrown it away)
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Le Baron » Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:29 pm

Good points. Perhaps some larger grammars expand to suit the language peculiarities as well.
Iversen wrote:PS: I have a few books that combine being a grammar with exercises , and I absolutely hate that genre. A grammar should tell me things, not ask me questions - but with just one exception those I chose to buy didn't call themselves "grammar" - sneaky bastards! (the exception was a teach yourself grammar for some language (maybe Latin?), but it seems that I have thrown it away)

Yes, this is a good point. I also dislike those. I just want explanations and some examples and I'll find my usage practise elsewhere.
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Ug_Caveman » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:13 am

Iversen wrote:I have got four 'essential' grammars from Routledge


I'm still waiting for them to release "Unessential Dutch Grammar" to complete my collection... Any day now...
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby vegantraveller » Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:47 am

All Vallardi grammars (based in Italian unfortunately). I have collected English, Advanced English, German, Advanced German, French, Spanish, and Japanese (Japanese comes also with kanji). An excellent compact grammar reference, the quality is outstanding: https://www.vallardi.it/catalogo/collan ... atica.html
They also have Italian, Russian, Portuguese, Mandarin, Arabic, Latin, Polish, and Hebrew.
The only drawback is Italian in case!
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Raconteur » Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:14 pm

Chung wrote:Elementary Turkish (this breaks the rule for page numbers by eight, but a small handbook of 208 pages versus one of 200 really can't be a deal-breaker).
How is this book, did you use it a lot, would you recommend it? Thanks!
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby księżycowy » Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:37 pm

Raconteur wrote:
Chung wrote:Elementary Turkish (this breaks the rule for page numbers by eight, but a small handbook of 208 pages versus one of 200 really can't be a deal-breaker).
How is this book, did you use it a lot, would you recommend it? Thanks!

I have a copy, and consider it good, but I too would be interested in Chung's (most likely more thorough) thoughts as well.
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Re: 'Concise grammars' (which aren't that concise)

Postby Carmody » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:20 am

Well, there is
French Verbs and Essentials of Grammar that is 138 pages long. Cost: $10-12.
and
Ultimate French Review and Practice by Stillman and Gordon. 400 Pages. Cost $20.
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