Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

[louisianne]

When I was learning Arabic in a language school, many of my classmates were University students of Arabic philology. Most of them were in the lasts years of their studies and were used to translate many classical texts and knew a lot of classical Arabic grammar.

But despite of this, they never had used the real language, not knew any dialect, so in fact they couldn't speak the language as natives did, and they had to take extra language classes or travel to an Arabic speaking country in order to be able to get speaking proficiency.

[tastyonions]

When I was learning Arabic in a language school, many of my classmates were University students of Arabic philology. Most of them were in the lasts years of their studies and were used to translate many classical texts and knew a lot of classical Arabic grammar.

But despite of this, they never had used the real language, not knew any dialect, so in fact they couldn't speak the language as natives did, and they had to take extra language classes or travel to an Arabic speaking country in order to be able to get speaking proficiency.

Interesting. Reminds me of the discussion around Mary Beard's statement that she and many other classicists can't simply "sit down and read" the ancient texts that they study for a living, comparing the likes of Thucydides and Tacitus to Joyce's Finnegans Wake in terms of opacity. Unfortunately I can't find a non-paywall version of the original article but here is one blog's response to it:

http://blogicarian.blogspot.com/2019/03 ... ntiam.html

[s_allard]

I will start by rephrasing the title of the thread : Could you have passed a C2 exam and still have difficulty speaking the informal language with native speakers?
The answer is : Yes, of course.

Instead of talking about being at the C1 or C2 level – whatever that means – let’s talk about having passed an official exam such the one from the Instituto Cervantes, the Goethe Institut or the DELF. I’m sure that nobody here expects these exams to test your ability to tell racy jokes and shoot the breeze while sitting around a table drinking beer or whatever.

The CEFR exams by their very nature have a strong bias towards the formal written language. At the C level the expected skills are akin to those of an educated native speaker. This should not be surprising because these are the skills that are most highly appreciated by the institutions or organizations that require the C levels.

Thus a certified C2 level speaker should not have much difficulty interacting with a native speaker when discussing in a formal setting. That’s what the C2 certification means and nothing more.

What makes things complicated is that in real-life situations the necessary spoken language skills can vary considerably between the informal and the formal. Plus there is often a considerable component of cultural elements and idiomatics that is very hard to master. So, as been pointed out by others, and notably iguanamon, there are many simple everyday situations where the certified C2 speaker may not have a mastery of the native-like discourse codes commonly used. This has little to do with the C level exams.

[Le Baron]

This thread is really about speaking. What few want to admit or agree to is that excepting any geniuses who might be mentioned, it's very, very difficult to become adept at speaking unless you do a great deal of free-form speaking and preferably in situations where everyone else around you is speaking the TL. Which is primarily a case of being in an immersion situation. Where you are being fed a diet of real-life interactive language you can learn and adopt.

Since this is not convenient or possible for a lot of learners a lot of invented justifications and quarrelsome denials are made, or theories about how you can e.g. run speaking drills in some special way and achieve the same, or listen-read yourself into a stupor and come out the other end a speaker.

The discussion of the CEFR C1/C2 being judged as it is in relation to this question was legit, even if it needed investigation/discussion through the thread. It's a fair question because the stated aim of those exams (and courses) is to help you achieve not just written ability but also speaking and listening ability. So there's always the burning question: 'so, will I be able to speak with natives?..will I be fluent?' It's a simplistic question which doesn't look at what is in-between day one of ever becoming acquainted with said TL and achieving a certificate. By the time I got to the B2 German exam (I haven't done any C level exams in German) I could already talk to people. I didn't just turn up to a class, I read lots of books, read the paper daily, watched TV daily, spoke to people daily copying their turns of phrase and stumbling until becoming better. I made a great effort to swim rather than sink. I was in Germany. I think not being in Germany would have made it slower and more difficult, or at least slanted it in a different way, relying on media output rather than live interaction. The latter is different because it demands things of you.

So I'd say if you are in e.g. the U.S. or Turkey or somewhere and studying Polish at some school or at home and preparing for exams and doing them and getting certificates, but you've never been to Poland or just made a short trip or two, the situation will be wholly different to someone studying just as hard but living in Poland. Such that you might have a C" certificate and the one living in Poland doesn't, but can still speak more fluently and naturally than you because there's no other option when your daily life requires it. Allowing for differences of skill and dedication, because if someone comes with a single example and says: 'oh but you're wrong, because I learned Polish thousands of miles away, passed a C2 exam, and got to Poland and managed just fine..!' Well good for you, it means you managed it, not that the proposition 'getting a C2 certificate in any scenario ensures mastery and fluent speech'.

[luke]

I argue that you may know the language well (i.e. its grammar/vocabulary/pronunciation) without being able to use it effectively in an immediate, on-the-fly setting where you must interact with native speakers. I may be wrong though–which would mean this person really isn't C1/C2 material and still has work to do.

You're only C1/C2 if you've passed the test, right?

"What are you up to this weekend? How are you getting along with [person]? How's work and stuff?" You should never answer the DALF way, which is something like "First and foremost, I will address the issue more broadly, before analyzing multiple alternatives. Finally, I will explain their strong and weak points, as well

You've got a smile on my face, thinking it might be humorous for you interlocuters if you did respond that way.