Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby mook_wazo » Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:10 am

I don't think so. An academic linguist might have extensive knowledge on grammatical nuance and lexicon but may not be able to string together cohesive sentences in the same way a musician may have an extensive breadth of knowledge regarding musical theory and know which piano keys play which note while not being able to sight-read Chopin's Nocturnes. The CEFR labels, however, are definitionally tied to capacity of comprehension and production; if one "is a C1 or C2," he obligatorily is not a beginner in any sense.
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby anitarrc » Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:02 am

mattmo wrote:I've heard the stories of people scoring highest band 9 in IELTS but then struggling to hear what native speakers are talking about when they moved to an English-speaking country such as England.

What do you guys think about this?


My Ukrainian workmate has studied (well "read") english at a East Ukrainian university for 5 years. She can't speak a sentence or write a standard office offer. But she is perfect at listing 19th century poems.

She passed her exam with all bells and whistles.

Till I started my job here I could talk in a very qualified manner about car repairs, energy grids, electronic circuits or the present Covid policy at the time. About immigration (f)laws and broken wrists, dragonflies or camera lenses. But:

I didn't have the foggiest idea when to use permitiera or permitiese, hubiera podido or hubiese podido instead of pudiese. I just said or wrote what I had heard or seen before.

So I guess to exam standards that makes me 00 level till I put some effort into it. To be honest, does it matter? These standards differ significantly from language to language and within the language, depending on who defines them.
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby Cainntear » Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:29 am

The question sort of misses the point of the CEFR which the levels are taken from, and perhaps in doing so raises questions about the applicability of the CEFR.

First come A, then comes B, then comes C. You cannot be C-anything without being B2 first, and you can't be B-anything with being A2 first.
A is "basic user"
B is "independent user"
C is "proficient user"
CEFR global scale

The problem is that it's primarily intended to be a measure of immigrant language and doesn't really deal with the realities of out-of-country language learning. The whole structure of the A levels seems to presume phrase-based learning as a norm:
CEFR A1 wrote:Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type. Can introduce him/herself and others and can ask and answer questions about personal details such as where he/she lives, people he/she knows and things he/she has. Can interact in a simple way provided the other person talks slowly and clearly and is prepared to help.

The CEFR was made by teachers, and the common beginner stuff is all I am..., I have..., I want..., so that is all taken for granted.

But there is nothing in the CEFR that reflects the reality that people who are well-read and well-educated with have fewer problems with complex vocabulary and technical topics than the basics, because "articulation of alveolar consonants" has a word for word translation into most European languages, and is almost identical in Romance languages anyway because technical Latin roots aren't subject to much language change after borrowing, but common language changes lots (eg Germanic "willen" shifting from meaning "want" to being a future tense marker in English; Romance languages mixing up of "to have" and "to hold" as they went west etc). I could blow people away by giving in-depth explanations about English grammar in Spanish, because I was working under the assumption that the Latinate words I knew from English grammar study would probably be commonly used in Spanish school lessons on language awareness anyway. They would be equally stunned by how my apparent proficiency dipped when the conversation switched to everyday topics!! (At first, that is. I got really, really good in Spanish.)
Michel Thomas (yes, him again -- don't roll your eyes so heavily!) proved that the fabric of the language can be taught in a genuinely useful way that doesn't essentially use phrases taught before grammar. Teaching phrases before grammar lets the phrases be used as mnemonics and be referred to as examples once the rules are being consciously taught, but Thomas proved that wasn't necessary.

One thing that I do question about Thomas is whether he took that too far -- the everyday language is important, and irregular inflections (irregular verb conjugation, irregular noun pluralisation etc) are among the most common. He does teach some irregular verbs, but maybe doesn't teach enough (hence me having to turn to verb exercises after finishing the MT Spanish), but Thomas's influence led to me having conversations that would have been considered by observers to be B2 or even C1, but which couldn't be because I initially found myself tripping up on not having the vocabulary to hold A1 or A2 conversations.

So the CEFR is weak. It's biggest success is that before CEFR every country had its own vague levels and those weren't generally translatable. In some countries "intermedio" was used in such a way that if you wrote "intermediate" on a CV you sent to a British company, you'd be assumed to be useless, but you were actually pretty good.

The CEFR eliminated the problem of each country/language having its own collection of vague terms that didn't translate cleanly into other languages. Instead, everyone now has the same collection of vague terms. However, as teaching has migrated a bit from the norms in the 1990s, the levels have lost their applicability. Courses that don't follow a CEFR style still use the terms even though they don't really fulfil them, and we have commercial pressures that have made exaggeration of levels the norm and there's kind of a race between suppliers to produce materials that have higher target levels, but lower learner time.

Oh yes, and the CEFR levels are totally inappropriate for self-teaching materials anyway, because the assumption of inane conversations -- "Jello, my nem is Juan. Juat is your nem?" "Ay layk beer. Do you layk beer?" etc etc -- is kind of encoded in it. Your are unlikely to get A1 before A2 or A2 before B1 without this sort of classroom experience. There is nothing in self-study materials that can get you to an A level or even B1, because you'll never meet the descriptors. Essentially, the CEFR leaves progress in a self-taught environment unmeasurable before B2. You can't be B2 without meeting the criteria for A1, A2 and B1, so essentially it's an all or nothing. Until you hit everything for B2, your level is nothing.

[Edit: please forgive me for going into rant mode and venting my spleen. Was just a thing needing a rant.]
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:47 pm

Cainntear wrote:The problem is that it's primarily intended to be a measure of immigrant language and doesn't really deal with the realities of out-of-country language learning.[/i]


I don't necessarily disagree with your post, but the above is not entirely accurate. It surely is used for measuring immigrant progress, but that is because they use the CEFR for that, not that the CEFR was created to be used for that reason. Its primary use is in schools and universities and other institutions where students aren't immigrants.

Also lots of languages in Europe (Norwegian,German, Catalan, Dutch etc) have other specific assessment systems which can be expressed in CEFR terms, but whose equivalent measures may differ.

I don't think it's true that assumed 'well read' people will have particularly fewer problems in attaining elements the CEFR measures and requires. If a person does well this will simply be reflected in the exam performance (excluding factors such as exam nerves and the like). The CEFR is applicable to autodidactic learning, especially when that learner is using some standard materials and can of course take the same tests as everyone else.
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby Cainntear » Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:14 pm

Le Baron wrote:
Cainntear wrote:The problem is that it's primarily intended to be a measure of immigrant language and doesn't really deal with the realities of out-of-country language learning.[/i]


I don't necessarily disagree with your post, but the above is not entirely accurate. It surely is used for measuring immigrant progress, but that is because they use the CEFR for that, not that the CEFR was created to be used for that reason. Its primary use is in schools and universities and other institutions where students aren't immigrants.

My recollection (and no, I can't find a source for this) was that ALTE and the CEFR were part of the European project, in the sense that language skill was the last barrier to international working within the EEA -- i.e. the mobile workforce was less mobile than it should be, and this was hampering the idea of European unity and mutual understanding. (The whole point of the European project being to get increased contact and stop the distrust of other nations that had led to several centuries of intermittent armed conflict. Yes, Boris Johnson has seemingly forgotten that!)

I think I was kind of stuck for the official terminology when I wrote, and I chose "immigrant" because I was basically pushing a point about immigrant identity not being a "them", because there's been a tendency within Europe to see "immigrant" as being "someone not from the EU/EEA".

The fact that CEFR is used in schools doesn't really say anything about its original intent, but it does point to how the CEFR is subtly pushing the syllabus, because even though the CEFR claims (or certainly used to claim) that it's not about what to teach when, well... it absolutely says in rough terms what to teach when.

Also lots of languages in Europe (Norwegian,German, Catalan, Dutch etc) have other specific assessment systems which can be expressed in CEFR terms, but whose equivalent measures may differ.

Yes -- as I said, it is a vague measure that addresses the translation problem. All the ALTE members basically did a fairly arbitrary mapping; so what I didn't say is probably important here: the ALTE tests didn't actually change to match the CEFR; they just gave a second level grade to their pre-existing tests. I do not know to what extent the existence of the CEFR has altered the evolution of tests within the framework.

I don't think it's true that assumed 'well read' people will have particularly fewer problems in attaining elements the CEFR measures and requires.

I tried to make my point clear, so sorry if you missed it:
me wrote:But there is nothing in the CEFR that reflects the reality that people who are well-read and well-educated with have fewer problems with complex vocabulary and technical topics than the basics,

I wasn't saying that well-read people would have fewer problems in reaching CEFR levels. What I was saying is that they're likely to have fewer problems with what's considered high level -- things like "complex topics" and "abstract topics" -- and that the low level stuff is likely to cause them more problems. The problem with the CEFR is that this "advanced first" mastery approach isn't recognised, because you shouldn't be able to achieve B2 or C1 without also having A1, A2 and B1 stuff under your belt.

If a person does well this will simply be reflected in the exam performance (excluding factors such as exam nerves and the like). The CEFR is applicable to autodidactic learning, especially when that learner is using some standard materials and can of course take the same tests as everyone else.

To restate my point: the global scale expects parroting repetitive phrasebook stuff first. Parroting phrases is a classroom thing. An autodidact is not going to have opportunities for parroting, and is therefore unlikely to hit the criteria for A1 before learning stuff that isn't expected until B1 or B2. However, having learned the grammar, the autodidact is going to find it easy to learn phrases because they all follow from the grammatical rules they have already internalised.

As such, I can't really picture an autodidact bothering with exams that genuinely meet the A level criteria, because they're unlikely to be able to pass any such exam until they can successfully handle a B1 exam. (But note: that's only if the CEFR stuff is actually done to the letter of the rules, which it often isn't!)
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:23 pm

Cainntear wrote:My recollection (and no, I can't find a source for this) was that ALTE and the CEFR were part of the European project, in the sense that language skill was the last barrier to international working within the EEA -- i.e. the mobile workforce was less mobile than it should be, and this was hampering the idea of European unity and mutual understanding. (The whole point of the European project being to get increased contact and stop the distrust of other nations that had led to several centuries of intermittent armed conflict. Yes, Boris Johnson has seemingly forgotten that!)

This was retroactive. The other 'projects' leading up to CEFR, which is not very old, all had the same idea: a pan-European basic standard. By the time of CEFR there were other things in consideration and pushed by certain members (France). Notably the question of people only learning English as a lingua Franca and this undermining national languages. According to the view of European unity around the time of the Rome treaty up to the 90s, it was considered that lots of Europeans could already manage more than one language - at least those who could be expected to be actually mobile for employment (and study)....as such:
Cainntear wrote:The fact that CEFR is used in schools doesn't really say anything about its original intent, but it does point to how the CEFR is subtly pushing the syllabus, because even though the CEFR claims (or certainly used to claim) that it's not about what to teach when, well... it absolutely says in rough terms what to teach when.

It does actually matter as a relevant point. The system was expected to be installed into schools as a pan-European measure to have everyone on the same page, aiming for the same sorts of goals and skill development. It's not that they tell people what, or more specifically how, to teach - or to micromanage classrooms - but that the language teaching would have the CEFR goals in mind.
Cainntear wrote:I tried to make my point clear, so sorry if you missed it:
me wrote:But there is nothing in the CEFR that reflects the reality that people who are well-read and well-educated with have fewer problems with complex vocabulary and technical topics than the basics,

I wasn't saying that well-read people would have fewer problems in reaching CEFR levels. What I was saying is that they're likely to have fewer problems with what's considered high level -- things like "complex topics" and "abstract topics" -- and that the low level stuff is likely to cause them more problems. The problem with the CEFR is that this "advanced first" mastery approach isn't recognised, because you shouldn't be able to achieve B2 or C1 without also having A1, A2 and B1 stuff under your belt.

I didn't miss it. CEFR testing does actually have complex vocabulary and technical topics. There is no division between that as some abstract and 'CEFR levels'. The testing is wide-ranging with some geared to general function and others towards the world of business or engineering topics. All those follow the same guidelines under specially-prepared syllabuses and testing. It doesn't matter how educated someone is, everyone can stumble when learning a language, especially to upper levels.
Cainntear wrote:To restate my point: the global scale expects parroting repetitive phrasebook stuff first. Parroting phrases is a classroom thing. An autodidact is not going to have opportunities for parroting, and is therefore unlikely to hit the criteria for A1 before learning stuff that isn't expected until B1 or B2. However, having learned the grammar, the autodidact is going to find it easy to learn phrases because they all follow from the grammatical rules they have already internalised.

As such, I can't really picture an autodidact bothering with exams that genuinely meet the A level criteria, because they're unlikely to be able to pass any such exam until they can successfully handle a B1 exam. (But note: that's only if the CEFR stuff is actually done to the letter of the rules, which it often isn't!)

It doesn't really matter. That A1>A2>B1 thing is just a recommended guided pathway. Many people don't follow it to the letter and the intake for courses leading to an exam (or just taking an exam) are checked with tests. If a person has learned the basics in a different way and wants to attempt e.g. the B1 Delft or DELE or a German certificate or what-have-you, some places let you sit a test to determine where you are and what you'd need to do.
What is 'the autodidact' really? I know what it's supposed to be in its ideal form, but it's not really a fixed type along the line of people saying they're learning that way. 'Teach yourself' but using someone else's instructions is a sliding scale between painting by numbers and someone with a very firm grasp of what they're doing. A lot of people are in-between.
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby tiia » Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:31 am

The descriptors for the CEFR levels are vague. For the A1 level we may have certain phrases in mind that appear to be in textbooks, but it just came to my mind that it is never defined what those phrases actually are.
Since they had a person in mind that is moving to the country, where the language in question ist spoken, those phrases may be different from what is taught in the books.

Just some anecdotal examples:
- My former flatmate from the Phillipines spoke no Finnish. However, she did understand "ei mainoksia" (="no advertisements") on the apartment doors.
- Travelling to the Basque country (even with already trying to learn the language) one of the phrases I learned there was "Hurrengo geltokia" (="next stop"), because I was taking the bus several times during my stay.
I think neither of the phrases would be taught in a textbook in the very beginning, because in the very beginning most books are nowadays focussing on introducing yourself and direct communication.
Last edited by tiia on Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby Irena » Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:50 am

Personally, I pretty much ignore the CEFR scale up to B2. And I see B2 merely as a stepping stone to C1 anyway. I don't think I've ever been a "true A2" in any language. That is to say, I've never been able to do all the A2 level stuff without also being able to do quite a lot of things that are supposedly learned only at much higher levels. Some of this has to do with the fact that I find some A2 level activities (hello, shopping) quite unpleasant for non-linguistic reasons, and so I don't bother deliberately learning how to do them in my target language (certainly not early on).

Also, this may vary from exam to exam, but my understanding is that for lower levels (A1-B1), CEFR exams are extremely lenient when it comes to grammar. If you can make yourself understood Tarzan-style, then that should be good enough. (Of course, what a CEFR examiner is able to make sense of may differ from what the lady next door is able to make sense of...) But then suddenly, at B2, they start caring a lot. So, preparing for lower-level exams may actually be counterproductive if your goal is to reach the higher levels, since those lower-level exams incentivize mostly ignoring grammar (i.e. if you just want to pass the exam with as little effort as possible, you shouldn't bother with grammar too much), which will come back to bite you at higher levels.

Semi-related: I remember reading some article (no, I cannot find it now) that said that many foreign language teachers in England ignore grammar in their classes because those GCSEs can be passed without it. So, they just focus on vocabulary because that's what improves the pass rate for their students. Is this true? Can anyone from England comment? Well, if it is true, then that's a flaw in exam design. It's no good telling teachers not to teach to the test. (You might as well tell cats not to chase mice...) If ignoring grammar leads to better exam results for the students, then teachers will ignore grammar. :roll:
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby Cainntear » Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:56 am

tiia wrote:The descriptors for the CEFR levels are vague. For the A1 level we may have certain phrases in mind that appear to be in textbooks, but it just came to my mind that it is never defined what those phrases actually are.

That's actually my main issue. The CEFR uses the fact that it doesn't list specific phrases as justification that it is not about what should be taught when. There is an assumption that talking about yourself is "the basics", and a course that doesn't follow that is often criticised for teaching things in the "wrong order". I was ready to offer a student her money back after overhearing complaints that I was teaching things in "the wrong order" but she didn't say anything directly to me and didn't turn up the next week. I'd heard her parroting the usual and I knew that if I taught a minority language the way she thought all languages "should" be taught, the whole class would be trapped with no useful language at all.
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Re: Could you be C1/C2 and still be a practical "beginner" in the language?

Postby Caromarlyse » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:53 pm

Irena wrote:Semi-related: I remember reading some article (no, I cannot find it now) that said that many foreign language teachers in England ignore grammar in their classes because those GCSEs can be passed without it. So, they just focus on vocabulary because that's what improves the pass rate for their students. Is this true? Can anyone from England comment? Well, if it is true, then that's a flaw in exam design. It's no good telling teachers not to teach to the test. (You might as well tell cats not to chase mice...) If ignoring grammar leads to better exam results for the students, then teachers will ignore grammar. :roll:


My experience is very dated, but I distinctly remember that in one of my early German classes (I had three years of classes before taking the GCSE exam) I asked why "der Bahnhof" had become "den Bahnhof" in a sentence. The teacher told me not to worry about it. I also remember that in the first A level class (i.e. the term after the GCSE exam, for those who decided to take the language further) the teacher despaired at how little grammar we all knew. I got my own books and tried as much as I could to teach myself and fill in the gaps, but it was definitely ignored. I'm not sure whether you could pass the exam without it - my outdated experience is that you'd at least have been marked down for grammar mistakes - but it was certainly not given much emphasis at all. We did have only 1-2 hours of German classes per week though!
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