to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
Xenops
Brown Belt
Posts: 1444
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: Boston
Languages: English (N), Danish (A2), Japanese (rusty), Nansha (constructing)
On break: Japanese (approx. N4), Norwegian (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16797
x 3558
Contact:

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Xenops » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:25 pm

jimmy wrote:
I remember a face to face conversation between me and one British English person like this:

I asked : what are you doing as job?
X said : I am a type of trader (I manage restaurants ) now I have 15 restarants in England.
I asked: what is your educational background?
X said: I did not prefer to read after primary school
I asked: why?
X said: because this route does not guarantee any job position for you so I did not prefer.

*****
after that I had nothing to say, the conversataion stopped and ended.


He's not wrong; I think many Americans my age and younger are realizing that their liberal arts degrees aren't great for finding jobs. All I can say is getting educated in certain jobs or trades will increase your marketability--but nothing is guaranteed. We all wish we got discern the future, but we can't. The best we can do is learn from trends and the market, and take a risk. Conversely, some university degrees have decreased marketability--philosophy, humanities, general biology, etc.
2 x
Check out my comic at: https://atannan.com/

User avatar
anitarrc
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:10 am
Location: Luxembourg
Languages: Moved around... English + German + Spanish + Dutch + French + Portuguese
used daily
Catalá Russian Serbian: struggling but improving. Bahasa..needs refreshment
x 304
Contact:

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby anitarrc » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:22 am

In my case, Moving and travel started it all.
Then came curiosity..
And more necessity. You have to be good at languages to compensate for being a woman in some countries.
Sadly, in France or Germany you still have to be 2x better than a man before they even read your letter.
(Employer: vous ne croyez pas sérieusement que nous offririons un position avec des telles responsabilités à une dame). So being as good as humanly possible in the target language is crucial.

Luxembourg requires French and German and Portuguese or English, unless for some quirk you can speak Luxembourgish. But they are fair towards woman, I never once heard the bovine manure you get in (F) or (D). To be fair, I had a successful job interview in the UK but their politicians don't want Europeans now so I rather took the Luxembourg offer than face 50 steps of red tape.

In Latin America, you will have a very limited life in every which way unless you speak Spanish or Portuguese.

Apart form my ongoing struggle with Russian, I have learned languages for necessity and travel. Getting "by" with English is embarrassing to me.
Last edited by anitarrc on Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
4 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17549

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Cavesa » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:07 pm

Lisa wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Are your four foreign languages more hobby or need languages? I need to read your log, it looks great!


They are all hobby languages... I'd prefer to have a need language, or a serious specific-goal language, actually; it's too easy to skip the hard parts, or change language direction, without that impetus. Which is hard to come by living in the middle of nowhere.


You can simulate the experience of having a need language to some extente. It is a game with one's own mind after all. You can up the stakes by signing up for a language exam, or planning another deadline, where you are investing some money and time and opportunities.

It's definitely a challenge, I see. But there are ways to get a similar kind of pressure these days, if you find it beneficial (as it can really be a strong motivator).

jimmy wrote:but, having a native English Tongue does not guarantee evertyhing in my opinion.
what is more, trying to defense or protect yourself quite wise thing to do.
I already have a permanent job these days, but none can guarantee tomorrow for me.
so,why not try to protect myself from potential risks/problems?


It is not a guarantee, but the pressure is still by several levels lower than for the rest of the world. I totally agree it is wise to have more options ans some English natives clearly think the same. But it is not the same as for the rest of us. Life is unstable, we can need to change the course various times, we never know.

Xenops wrote:As for "learning a language because it's useful": my advice would be unless you have very specific plan for an additional language other than your local one or English, don't bother. "It's useful" is such a vague, nebulous reason to learn a language, and there's nothing to keep you studying it. If you want to work in healthcare in Germany, then learn German. If you want to be a missionary to a tribe in South America, learn that tribe's language. If you want to be an animator in Japan, learn Japanese. Those are specific goals and reasons. Not a language, but I studied a STEM major in university "because it's useful"--but for what, though? I couldn't get a job with my microbiology degree, and went back to school for a specific job that allows me to work in the hospital. I have no problems getting a job with my second degree.


This is a very good point and something I hoped to make clear in my post on the need/utility vs pleasure/interest comment. I only consider the specific plans to really be the need/utility. Such as: you have at least a half made mind to move abroad. You can use the language at your current or seriously considered job. You are obligated by the school system to learn a particular language and otherwise will be punished in some form (such as bad grades closing some doors for you).

The general "it is useful" feeling, usually based on "everyone says" and "everyone knows" simply sucks. It doesn't fall into either category imho. If you decide based on that, without any clear plan, I think you are much closer to the "interest" kind of motivation. You are interested, because it might be useful.

I used to hear all the time "why are you wasting time on French, German is the useful second foreign language, French is worthless". So, I learnt it out of interest in spite of them, and later found very good practical uses for the language. Most people around me focusing on German "because it is useful" (and therefore not "wasting time" like me) ended up not really using/needing German that much anyways. Similar social pressure works in many places, you can just replace the languages in the phrases with others. It can lead to learning out of interest at best, and to being unhappy and hating a language at worst. This "it is useful" pressure is very far from a real need.
5 x

jimmy
Green Belt
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:08 pm
Languages: ...
x 182

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:17 pm

Xenops wrote:He's not wrong; I think many Americans my age and younger are realizing that their liberal arts degrees aren't great for finding jobs. All I can say is getting educated in certain jobs or trades will increase your marketability--but nothing is guaranteed..


which of certain jobs? is this possible to specify?
my personal idea: none can be sure on about tomorrow.

. Conversely, some university degrees have decreased marketability--philosophy, humanities, general biology, etc

yes, unfortunately. :) :)
0 x
Self Taught - Autodidactic

jimmy
Green Belt
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:08 pm
Languages: ...
x 182

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:23 pm

a decision: I do not want to read any university program anymore for expecting something like increasing the chance of my economic status.
Rather than that, if I say "I am still willing to be in a university program" ,I would prefer to identify the reason with referring something else.

mmm, for instance this one: to get real social interactions , to meet some new personalities etc. but surely not for learning something , and not for the expectation mentioned above.

as said, none can be sure about tomorrow (i.e. there is no certain jobs as that) ,I do not believe...
0 x
Self Taught - Autodidactic

User avatar
anitarrc
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:10 am
Location: Luxembourg
Languages: Moved around... English + German + Spanish + Dutch + French + Portuguese
used daily
Catalá Russian Serbian: struggling but improving. Bahasa..needs refreshment
x 304
Contact:

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby anitarrc » Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:49 am

jimmy wrote:a decision: I do not want to read any university program anymore for expecting something like increasing the chance of my economic status.
Rather than that, if I say "I am still willing to be in a university program" ,I would prefer to identify the reason with referring something else.

mmm, for instance this one: to get real social interactions , to meet some new personalities etc. but surely not for learning something , and not for the expectation mentioned above.

as said, none can be sure about tomorrow (i.e. there is no certain jobs as that) ,I do not believe...


which is your profession?

In my experience, you can work almost anywhere, albeit sometimes not officially, if you are

nurse or doctor or related profession
qualified carer
programmer
mechanic
electrician
welder
electronics engineer
agricultural technician
airco or heating technician
baker
vet
roofer
plumber
painter (bodywork or industrial)
carpenter
fitter or toolmaker

naturally, these also come at different level of qualification.

I was surprised how fast I had an (illegal) job offer in Costa Rica. That is without advertising. It came with the remark.. in six months you'll be fine in Spanish. Very true.
2 x

jimmy
Green Belt
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:08 pm
Languages: ...
x 182

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:48 am

anitarrc wrote:
jimmy wrote:a decision: I do not want to read any university program anymore for expecting something like increasing the chance of my economic status.
Rather than that, if I say "I am still willing to be in a university program" ,I would prefer to identify the reason with referring something else.

mmm, for instance this one: to get real social interactions , to meet some new personalities etc. but surely not for learning something , and not for the expectation mentioned above.

as said, none can be sure about tomorrow (i.e. there is no certain jobs as that) ,I do not believe...


which is your profession?

In my experience, you can work almost anywhere, albeit sometimes not officially, if you are

nurse or doctor or related profession
qualified carer
programmer
mechanic
electrician
welder
electronics engineer
agricultural technician
airco or heating technician
baker
vet
roofer
plumber
painter (bodywork or industrial)
carpenter
fitter or toolmaker

naturally, these also come at different level of qualification.

I was surprised how fast I had an (illegal) job offer in Costa Rica. That is without advertising. It came with the remark.. in six months you'll be fine in Spanish. Very true.


well, there is more embodiment in this comment. Many thanks for this comment.
and may I reply with a question to this question/comment?
as said I have maths degree. Here in Turkey I do not believe that education is good , you have even the probability to downward/lose your IQ degree at some education centers.

so, my question :

what (about) if I want to be specialized in cyber security or programming by my personal works?
I may also consider to start with a new one. but as said, I do not believe the quality of education here.
what is more the age parameter may make something more difficult than the predicted for the latter life.

Thanks
0 x
Self Taught - Autodidactic

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7223
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23092
Contact:

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby rdearman » Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:00 am

jimmy wrote:what (about) if I want to be specialized in cyber security or programming by my personal works?

65% of all new programmers are self-taught according to some surveys, so this isn't really a problem. The issue is most employers what to know that you can program well before they hire you. So like artists, most programmers have a "portfolio" which can be shown to the potential employer. Typically, these are programs you've written which are hosted on GitHub (or similar) and are publicly available to review.

Most new developers will have lots of repositories. These shallow repositories have only a few commits before abandonment. So, for the person looking at this profile, they either see someone who’s in tutorial hell or someone who doesn’t finish things. So you need to have completed projects to show. Also find some open-source projects and contribute because open source contributions are so valuable. It’s not the lines of code. It’s coding to a public standard on large codebases. e.g. you can work with others.

You should also consider the programming language you are going to learn. Any dipstick can learn python, after all it was designed for children. Rust is a well-loved language, but super difficult. There are thousands of opportunities to program in python, but you are competing against every dipstick on the planet. Rust his much harder and not many commercial opportunities, but the pay is a lot better.

The language with the most jobs advertised is SQL, although it is really confused because Microsoft named their database after the programming language, so it is difficult to determine if people want someone who administers the Microsoft software, or someone who writes SQL programs. And even then there are "dialects" for example there is standard SQL used in most databases, there is T-SQL which is used in the Microsoft databases, and then there are procedural versions like PL/SQL, or PL/pgSQL.

So I would recommend you learn standard SQL, (shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks, it is actually really easy). Then learn Java, or C, and python. Interestingly, good old-fashioned C still gets more jobs posted than C++.
4 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

jimmy
Green Belt
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:08 pm
Languages: ...
x 182

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:18 pm

rdearman wrote:
jimmy wrote:what (about) if I want to be specialized in cyber security or programming by my personal works?

65% of all new programmers are self-taught according to some surveys, so this isn't really a problem. The issue is most employers what to know that you can program well before they hire you. So like artists, most programmers have a "portfolio" which can be shown to the potential employer. Typically, these are programs you've written which are hosted on GitHub (or similar) and are publicly available to review.

Most new developers will have lots of repositories. These shallow repositories have only a few commits before abandonment. So, for the person looking at this profile, they either see someone who’s in tutorial hell or someone who doesn’t finish things. So you need to have completed projects to show. Also find some open-source projects and contribute because open source contributions are so valuable. It’s not the lines of code. It’s coding to a public standard on large codebases. e.g. you can work with others.

You should also consider the programming language you are going to learn. Any dipstick can learn python, after all it was designed for children. Rust is a well-loved language, but super difficult. There are thousands of opportunities to program in python, but you are competing against every dipstick on the planet. Rust his much harder and not many commercial opportunities, but the pay is a lot better.

The language with the most jobs advertised is SQL, although it is really confused because Microsoft named their database after the programming language, so it is difficult to determine if people want someone who administers the Microsoft software, or someone who writes SQL programs. And even then there are "dialects" for example there is standard SQL used in most databases, there is T-SQL which is used in the Microsoft databases, and then there are procedural versions like PL/SQL, or PL/pgSQL.

So I would recommend you learn standard SQL, (shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks, it is actually really easy). Then learn Java, or C, and python. Interestingly, good old-fashioned C still gets more jobs posted than C++.


many thanks @rdearman , to be honest I like some of your specific notions like these (I think the core reason is that such of your comments are positive in mind and favorable to me,exceptionally thanks)

I also think that it would not be hard to learn SQL as I had already learnt a bit in faculty before graduation.
but python seems a bit interesting in the list. (I remember: It was free in the past and was coming automatically with linux operation system, but these days it seems should be separately downloaded)
ok. and C? will this suit for a "self taught" one who had maths degree? (I mean whether employes would recognize this skill?)

there are some stupid ideas in the country where i live. whenever you say "I have knowledge in this language" the first thing they do is :"where did you learn this?"
if you say that you knew Chinese , they will look at your face (both nicely and strangely) like they came across an UFO.

:) :) :)
0 x
Self Taught - Autodidactic

User avatar
anitarrc
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:10 am
Location: Luxembourg
Languages: Moved around... English + German + Spanish + Dutch + French + Portuguese
used daily
Catalá Russian Serbian: struggling but improving. Bahasa..needs refreshment
x 304
Contact:

Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby anitarrc » Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:01 am

In your case, as a mathematician, it leads to:

jimmy wrote:
anitarrc wrote:
..
programmer
..
electronics engineer


well, there is more embodiment in this comment. Many thanks for this comment.
and may I reply with a question to this question/comment?
as said I have maths degree. Here in Turkey I do not believe that education is good , you have even the probability to downward/lose your IQ degree at some education centers.

so, my question :

what (about) if I want to be specialized in cyber security or programming by my personal works?
I may also consider to start with a new one. but as said, I do not believe the quality of education here.
what is more the age parameter may make something more difficult than the predicted for the latter life.

Thanks


@Rdearman put it right.

Learn C, PLC programming etc.

you'll be fine. Maths is universal. and don't worry about your IQ, these jobs keep it well trained
I am a mechanic and electronics engineer myself.
1 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests