to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

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jimmy
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:21 am

lavengro wrote:
jimmy wrote:....
based on which type of reasons you make selection of a new language?
....

Is masochism a possible choice for a response? .

mm something more intellectual was predicted
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Cavesa » Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:34 am

jimmy wrote:I could not read carefully all the comments , but with thankful mind, if I have a suitable time I will read them.

Two questions based on what I come across in the deepness of my eyes :) :)
I see some members expressing that they did not preferred any language they wanted to learn based on necessity.
I also see some members' preferences are quite different options/selections (For instance I newly here saw "Tuvan" , and still have not google yet)

while I predict that such profiles were presumably & potentially happy personalities, may I ask to them:

1) why did not you pay attention to necessity parameter in selection list?
2) can we say that you have not lived any economic problem in your former period of life?
(normally ,I know everyone lives economic problems but most probably not everyone are equal in this regard or did those members believed that there would be no correlation between money and language knowledge & skills)

Thanks


You might notice that the answer to 1) is usually "being a native English speaker" or "already speaking English and/or other big language". An English speaker is free to ignore any usefulness parameter and just pick Tuvan (and it is actually a very nice way to use their privilege). A monolingual Czech speaker could never afford such a choice.

As to 2) not necessarily. Contrary to popular belief, the answer "English/German will make you rich" or anything similar is simply not universal. Many people with economic struggles simply cannot use a language to get out of them. A language is just one of the paths, and it usually needs to be a part of a more complex plan (a language +another skill or degree, a language+ moving abroad, a language+a particular locality you live in).
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Cavesa » Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:49 pm

Lisa wrote:I'd say the most compelling reason to pick a language is economic or social need, that is, to get a better job, to do better in a current job, or if you live in a place where you'd need to use that language everyday. As an english speaker, I've never had a actual need for another language; even on jobs in other countries, at most A1 skills were needed, since everyone working on software projects had a working knowledge of english.

Learning a language purely for enjoyment and interest means that:

(1) you must have that much time to devote to learning that language, which you cannot spend doing something else. I am spending too much time on languages myself, since it is more fun than things I should be doing.

(2) that interest and attraction must be so strong, that it is enough to keep you motivated when things get difficult and take a long time. That's why I am not learning chinese - I don't think I will be able to keep up the amount of effort that would be needed.


All this is very logical, but I've observed some behaviours that don't follow this logic. Not just mine, but rather common.

Most learners (the normal learners, not such language lovers as most people on this forum) learn for jobs, study, etc. Yet, most of them fail. I am not really convinced either category "utility" or "pleasure" is a better guarantee of success, a better motivation. I've seen far too many failed learners, who really needed a language, that my belief in combination of both being the best gets stronger and stronger.

(1) is a very good point, but we should take into account that it is normal to have hobbies. We are not supposed to earn money or do related stuff 100% of the time. It is not healthy. Most people learning a language out of pure interest/pleasure are not losing any opportunity, they are doing it instead of a different hobby. And when it comes to hobbies, there is no better/worse hobby, there is only a personal choice.

Not having any time/money for hobbies is a problem, but it is not language learning specific.

(2) And that's why I am not really sure whether "utility" is superior as motivation than "pleasure". The discipline required ot keep putting time and efforts into something you dislike is more of a challenge than the one put into something you find joy in.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:12 pm

Cavesa wrote:
(2) And that's why I am not really sure whether "utility" is superior as motivation than "pleasure". The discipline required ot keep putting time and efforts into something you dislike is more of a challenge than the one put into something you find joy in.


well, to think that you utilize from something or to think that you would utilize from something gives you a sufficient deepness of imagination for future. At least I think so or for past experiences ,I have thought so up to now. I have not left this idea. but unfortunately with small amount of percentage ,I am also not sure. Because when I learned Russian in real life (by exposing to russians) I am almost sure that it was more effective.And this is not the same with working at the background with imaginations.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Thu Mar 09, 2023 5:33 pm

Cavesa wrote:Most learners (the normal learners, not such language lovers as most people on this forum) learn for jobs, study, etc. Yet, most of them fail. I am not really convinced either category "utility" or "pleasure" is a better guarantee of success, a better motivation. I've seen far too many failed learners, who really needed a language, that my belief in combination of both being the best gets stronger and stronger.


There is a post somewhere in the HTLAL archives where Arguelles mentioned three types of learners (or reasons), and that the one that was most likely to fail is need. The one most likely to succeed was interest/enjoyment. Anecdotal evidence, no doubt.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:01 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:There is a post somewhere in the HTLAL archives where Arguelles mentioned three types of learners (or reasons), and that the one that was most likely to fail is need. The one most likely to succeed was interest/enjoyment. Anecdotal evidence, no doubt.


This is probable but I am sure not same for everyone. one would better learn if he enjoys , of course. But everyone's necessity does not mean the same thing.
Eh, one may say "I need an amount of money". When I was child I remember I lived an occasion which caused me to feel sad. I was a child as said after I had went to hospital, one woman entered in social service room and said "I need a solution could you help me please?" the another woman who was responsible for the actions in social service of hospital shouted to the speaking woman and after that mentioned woman was expelled from the room , she turned to my nice face and talked with me,
I said
"why did you behaved so rudely across that woman?"
she said:
"jimmy she was just hungry" I did not understand. Buy automatically inquested by myself why she was so much kind for me but rude across
that woman??
*****
I mean not everyone's need does not mean the same with other ones. (Degree & the that one's wishes and even most importantly what she/he does for it?)

it seems ,I also agree to the combination.
Last edited by jimmy on Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:18 pm

jimmy wrote:"why did you behaved so rudely across to/toward(s) that woman?"
she said:
"jimmy she was just hungry" I did not understand. Buy automatically inquested by myself (asked myself?) why she was so much kind for me but rude across .that woman??

These are 'corrections', but really I'm trying to get clarity for the story? I don't really understand what was happening or how it relates to the topic and the quote from Cavesa you answered.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:26 pm

Le Baron wrote:
jimmy wrote:"why did you behaved so rudely across to/toward(s) that woman?"
she said:
"jimmy she was just hungry" I did not understand. Buy automatically inquested by myself (asked myself?) why she was so much kind for me but rude across .that woman??

These are 'corrections', but really I'm trying to get clarity for the story? I don't really understand what was happening or how it relates to the topic and the quote from Cavesa you answered.

I think these errors are consciously being done. sorry, here we Turkishes are doing the same errors in our own language. :) :) (Generally because of time limit as now happens,I am busy and/or a bit panic)
And do not confuse such errors with my English level.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Lisa » Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:06 pm

Lisa wrote:I'd say the most compelling reason to pick a language is economic or social need, that is, to get a better job, to do better in a current job, or if you live in a place where you'd need to use that language everyday. As an english speaker, I've never had a actual need for another language; even on jobs in other countries, at most A1 skills were needed, since everyone working on software projects had a working knowledge of english.

Learning a language purely for enjoyment and interest means that:

(1) you must have that much time to devote to learning that language, which you cannot spend doing something else. I am spending too much time on languages myself, since it is more fun than things I should be doing.

(2) that interest and attraction must be so strong, that it is enough to keep you motivated when things get difficult and take a long time. That's why I am not learning chinese - I don't think I will be able to keep up the amount of effort that would be needed.

Cavesa wrote:All this is very logical, but I've observed some behaviours that don't follow this logic. Not just mine, but rather common.

Most learners (the normal learners, not such language lovers as most people on this forum) learn for jobs, study, etc. Yet, most of them fail. I am not really convinced either category "utility" or "pleasure" is a better guarantee of success, a better motivation. I've seen far too many failed learners, who really needed a language, that my belief in combination of both being the best gets stronger and stronger.


I'm far from an expert on language learning in general, so while this all seems logical after having thought a lot about my own learning decisions, I could be wrong in general...

To clarify, though, I wasn't really thinking about what might lead to success, just things that seem very likely to end in failure. Success requires also (I think) the personal characteristic of determination; to keep going rather than giving up.

Also... if you actually don't like your needed language it must be very difficult to learn. This is hard for me to imagine myself, although I suspect it's not uncommon.

Earlier comments don't take into account the relative difficulty of learning different languages (which is very specific to your own NL, the specific TL, and other languages you know). A less useful but easy-for-you language that you really want to learn might be more likely to end in success, than a difficult-for-you language that you need, but are not excited by.

Cavesa wrote: (1) is a very good point, but we should take into account that it is normal to have hobbies. We are not supposed to earn money or do related stuff 100% of the time. It is not healthy. Most people learning a language out of pure interest/pleasure are not losing any opportunity, they are doing it instead of a different hobby. And when it comes to hobbies, there is no better/worse hobby, there is only a personal choice.


Learning a language for pleasure certainly counts as a hobby, and certainly hobbies are important! It's still a decision on what hobbies you have and how much time you spend on them, since we all are limited to 24 hours in a day. And probably there is a limit on the number of hours your brain wants to study languages. If you study one language for pleasure you won't be spending those hours on a language you need to learn.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby leosmith » Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:47 am

jimmy wrote:mm something more intellectual was predicted
Agreed. This gentleman summarizes my motivations quite eloquently.
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