to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

General discussion about learning languages
Cavesa
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Cavesa » Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:30 am

Lisa wrote:I'm far from an expert on language learning in general, so while this all seems logical after having thought a lot about my own learning decisions, I could be wrong in general...

To clarify, though, I wasn't really thinking about what might lead to success, just things that seem very likely to end in failure. Success requires also (I think) the personal characteristic of determination; to keep going rather than giving up.

Also... if you actually don't like your needed language it must be very difficult to learn. This is hard for me to imagine myself, although I suspect it's not uncommon.

Earlier comments don't take into account the relative difficulty of learning different languages (which is very specific to your own NL, the specific TL, and other languages you know). A less useful but easy-for-you language that you really want to learn might be more likely to end in success, than a difficult-for-you language that you need, but are not excited by.


We are all discussing this mainly based on our experience and observations. I find that to be more valuable for use of the information than any biased research made on a totally different population than us.

Yes, success definitely requires personal characteristics, but those can get improved by training, and they are also affected by motivation.

If you don't like the needed language, it is very difficult to learn, I confirm. But nevertheless, liking is not the number one criterion (the most common example are the English learners. Nobody asks, whether you like English. If you do, good for you. If you don't, your problem).

You're absolutely right about the difficulty factor and the NL-TL combination. Nevertheless, this is true only to some extent. Anglophones rely on some official difficulty judgement, usually based on the famous FSI list. The rest of us has nothing like that. Apart from very obvious comparisons (yep, Polish is likely to be much much easier for me than Mandarin), the rest are just myths, and clichés. Everybody says how "French is harder than German for a Czech", but I have yet to see any sort of official research based or at least recent arguments. Or at least anything logical. The sort of "well, we used a lot of German words" argument was true for my grandmother, not for me.

So, I wonder whether "this is harder/easier language" isn't actually more affected by how much we like it, than vice versa.

Learning a language for pleasure certainly counts as a hobby, and certainly hobbies are important! It's still a decision on what hobbies you have and how much time you spend on them, since we all are limited to 24 hours in a day. And probably there is a limit on the number of hours your brain wants to study languages. If you study one language for pleasure you won't be spending those hours on a language you need to learn.


Well, it is still no lost opportunity. If you choose to learn a language as a hobby, there is no reason to regret not having time for knitting. And if you choose to knit, no reason to regret not learning language. If you do both, you are clearly ok with slower progress both in your Greek studies and in the length of your newest scarf. I don't think we should think about it as a lost opportunity, or our whole society will soon spin even deeper into madness.

Yeah 24h in a day, so hobbies are after jobs, eating, etc. But "limit on hours your brain wants to study languages" doesn't seem language specific either. If you need the language (and it is not just a hobby), than your likes are sort of secondary. If you have it as a hobby, you simply do what feels good at the given moment.

How to split those three hours between a language I need and the one I want (in my case right now: German vs Italian), that is always a tough question. Not sure how others do it (we have many good examples on the forum, but not sure we can generalize), but I do it very simply. German time counts as a sort of unpaid work time for me. Italian is my hobby time.

Are your four foreign languages more hobby or need languages? I need to read your log, it looks great!
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Lisa » Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:14 pm

Cavesa wrote:Are your four foreign languages more hobby or need languages? I need to read your log, it looks great!


They are all hobby languages... I'd prefer to have a need language, or a serious specific-goal language, actually; it's too easy to skip the hard parts, or change language direction, without that impetus. Which is hard to come by living in the middle of nowhere.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:04 pm

Cavesa wrote:
jimmy wrote:I could not read carefully all the comments , but with thankful mind, if I have a suitable time I will read them.

Two questions based on what I come across in the deepness of my eyes :) :)
I see some members expressing that they did not preferred any language they wanted to learn based on necessity.
I also see some members' preferences are quite different options/selections (For instance I newly here saw "Tuvan" , and still have not google yet)

while I predict that such profiles were presumably & potentially happy personalities, may I ask to them:

1) why did not you pay attention to necessity parameter in selection list?
2) can we say that you have not lived any economic problem in your former period of life?
(normally ,I know everyone lives economic problems but most probably not everyone are equal in this regard or did those members believed that there would be no correlation between money and language knowledge & skills)

Thanks


You might notice that the answer to 1) is usually "being a native English speaker" or "already speaking English and/or other big language". An English speaker is free to ignore any usefulness parameter and just pick Tuvan (and it is actually a very nice way to use their privilege). A monolingual Czech speaker could never afford such a choice.

As to 2) not necessarily. Contrary to popular belief, the answer "English/German will make you rich" or anything similar is simply not universal. Many people with economic struggles simply cannot use a language to get out of them. A language is just one of the paths, and it usually needs to be a part of a more complex plan (a language +another skill or degree, a language+ moving abroad, a language+a particular locality you live in).


but, having a native English Tongue does not guarantee evertyhing in my opinion.
what is more, trying to defense or protect yourself quite wise thing to do.
I already have a permanent job these days, but none can guarantee tomorrow for me.
so,why not try to protect myself from potential risks/problems?
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Xenops » Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:43 am

jimmy wrote:I could not read carefully all the comments , but with thankful mind, if I have a suitable time I will read them.

Two questions based on what I come across in the deepness of my eyes :) :)
I see some members expressing that they did not preferred any language they wanted to learn based on necessity.
I also see some members' preferences are quite different options/selections (For instance I newly here saw "Tuvan" , and still have not google yet)

while I predict that such profiles were presumably & potentially happy personalities, may I ask to them:

1) why did not you pay attention to necessity parameter in selection list?
2) can we say that you have not lived any economic problem in your former period of life?
(normally ,I know everyone lives economic problems but most probably not everyone are equal in this regard or did those members believed that there would be no correlation between money and language knowledge & skills)

Thanks


My reasoning for language selection(s) has changed over the years (and probably will continue to change, just hopefully not as much).

To give context: I grew up in a very monolingual part of a monolingual US state. The area I lived in is xenophobic--only in the past couple of decades has the local Aryan Nations been properly declared a "terrorist group". I remember hearing about them picketing around a new Mexican restaurant, or having their flags visible to onlookers. Minority residents made it a point to only shop at Walmart at night. My point is: there was no advantage to learning any foreign language.

Spanish I initially pursued for pleasure, and because I went on Mexican missions trips. It is a pretty language, and I thought perhaps useful. Then despite my interest in other languages, my dad negatively discouraged studying those and to only study Spanish, "because it's useful in the US". Since this experience has tainted my enthusiasm for the language, and because I'm not directly interacting with Spanish-speakers regularly, I dropped it. The benefits versus the costs of getting it to a high level were not worth it.

Japanese is a pleasure language, but also I'm haunted by what I don't yet know. "If I knew this language (better), I would find many avenues to use it", is a thought that comes to mind often. I regularly interact with Japanese people, and I enjoy both their traditional and pop cultures. I also enjoy visiting Japan, and more often than not I wonder if I should move there, temporarily or permanently.

Korean I'm still trying to figure out the opportunity cost. It would be another "if I knew it I would use it" language, since I do interact with Koreans and enjoy reading Webtoons.

I'm lumping the Scandinavian languages together, as I've yet to decide my plan of action--one would be the first language I would learn for immigration reasons. I'm not saying economic reasons--realistically, if I cared most about money, moving to another US state would be far easier. No, I'm considering immigration for quality of life purposes.

As for "learning a language because it's useful": my advice would be unless you have very specific plan for an additional language other than your local one or English, don't bother. "It's useful" is such a vague, nebulous reason to learn a language, and there's nothing to keep you studying it. If you want to work in healthcare in Germany, then learn German. If you want to be a missionary to a tribe in South America, learn that tribe's language. If you want to be an animator in Japan, learn Japanese. Those are specific goals and reasons. Not a language, but I studied a STEM major in university "because it's useful"--but for what, though? I couldn't get a job with my microbiology degree, and went back to school for a specific job that allows me to work in the hospital. I have no problems getting a job with my second degree.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Iversen » Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:19 am

My native language is Danish, and I had learnt English and German in school and understood Swedish (our nearest neighbour countries were the Bundesrepublik Deutschland and Sverige) - so everything apart from that was basically for fun, I didn't really need to add more languages.

I chose to study French at the university because I came from a literature institute where our nearest neighbour geographically and spiritually seemed to be the now defunct DDR, and within the Romance department the Spanish section of the Romance institute was brimfull of loyal students of FIdel Castro and Che Guevara - OK, then French seemed rather innocuous in comparison. But apart from that all my languages have been hobby languages, and that's actually a very good reason to study something.

And just to complete the picture: I could also NOT have studied languages at all. When I realized that French wasn't going to give me a safe and profitable future I skipped all language studies for the next 25 years. During that time I had other hobbies, like traveling, painting and playing/writing music, and as a youngster and during some years in the 80s I was also heavily involved with math and natural sciences. I even took most of an academic exam in economics (HD) except the final dissertation (I got a job instead). So it's not self-evident that I should end up wasting spending much of my time on one rather peripheral hobby named "languages", but now where I'm retired I have to do something, and at least languages can keep me occupied and happy for less money than playing golf.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:49 am

Xenops wrote:

As for "learning a language because it's useful": my advice would be unless you have very specific plan for an additional language other than your local one or English, don't bother. "It's useful" is such a vague, nebulous reason to learn a language, and there's nothing to keep you studying it. If you want to work in healthcare in Germany, then learn German. If you want to be a missionary to a tribe in South America, learn that tribe's language. If you want to be an animator in Japan, learn Japanese. Those are specific goals and reasons. Not a language, but I studied a STEM major in university "because it's useful"--but for what, though? I couldn't get a job with my microbiology degree, and went back to school for a specific job that allows me to work in the hospital. I have no problems getting a job with my second degree.


from this passage (especially last points) I understand something which are really a bit difficult to accept.
I also (unfortunately) experienced bad times with my university degree "mathematics" (too long times: more than 7 years) so, according to your experiences would you really like to advise to get a new degree ?

well,I think I can do in Turkey or I could do that in the past. maybe I still can. But my age is bigger than 31 so, is this meaningful?

I am planning to move to Egypt for about two months. maybe researching about their universities might be favorable.

Two things: I think I am self taught (but might be slowly learning , not sure)
and I need MONEY.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Irena » Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:38 pm

Xenops wrote:As for "learning a language because it's useful": my advice would be unless you have very specific plan for an additional language other than your local one or English, don't bother. "It's useful" is such a vague, nebulous reason to learn a language, and there's nothing to keep you studying it. If you want to work in healthcare in Germany, then learn German. If you want to be a missionary to a tribe in South America, learn that tribe's language. If you want to be an animator in Japan, learn Japanese. Those are specific goals and reasons.

This sounds about right. It takes hundreds of hours to get any good at a language, and thousands to get legitimately good. If you are motivated by some vague (as opposed to highly specific) sense of utility, you are unlikely to persist.

As for me: English is in a category of its own, but apart from English, I've started learning languages for a variety of reasons, but I've only ever succeeded in learning them for one of two reasons:

(1) a highly compelling practical need (nothing vague),
(2) a large body of high-quality literature that suits my tastes.

That's it. Nothing else has ever motivated me to keep going. Also, (1) without (2) is rather taxing, although when desperate, one can always turn to literature in translation (translated into the target language).
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby Xenops » Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:57 pm

jimmy wrote:
Xenops wrote:

As for "learning a language because it's useful": my advice would be unless you have very specific plan for an additional language other than your local one or English, don't bother. "It's useful" is such a vague, nebulous reason to learn a language, and there's nothing to keep you studying it. Those are specific goals and reasons. Not a language, but I studied a STEM major in university "because it's useful"--but for what, though? I couldn't get a job with my microbiology degree, and went back to school for a specific job that allows me to work in the hospital. I have no problems getting a job with my second degree.


from this passage (especially last points) I understand something which are really a bit difficult to accept.
I also (unfortunately) experienced bad times with my university degree "mathematics" (too long times: more than 7 years) so, according to your experiences would you really like to advise to get a new degree ?

well,I think I can do in Turkey or I could do that in the past. maybe I still can. But my age is bigger than 31 so, is this meaningful?

I am planning to move to Egypt for about two months. maybe researching about their universities might be favorable.

Two things: I think I am self taught (but might be slowly learning , not sure)
and I need MONEY.


A disclaimer: I am only a person online spouting off her opinions and experiences. You have to decide how applicable my opinion is.

Both my sister and I got our undergraduate degrees in STEM--microbiology for me, mathematics for her. She continued her studies for a master's degree. Both of our specialties taught a lot of the theoretical, but the application skills were lacking. Such are a lot of undergraduate degrees in the US. My sister could not find a job for her theoretical math degree. This led her to teach at a school in Honduras for a year, after which the teaching experience got her a job at a community college. My theoretical microbiology job only only gave me quality control options in the food industry, and so I got a job at a thrift store instead. I went back to school for a medical laboratory science degree (MLS), and the job options are much greater, because it's medicine related and it taught me applicable skills. At this point, I have to think that the only work-useful undergraduate degrees in the US number under 20, to include engineering, nursing, IT, etc. This has been an issue in the US, and continues to be one.

Another thing to consider: some countries have critical job lists for immigration, where if you have a certain occupation it's easier to get a work visa. For the countries you are considering, do you have such an occupation? If not, it might be worthwhile to reconsider schooling, but you have to to decide.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:02 pm

Xenops wrote:
Another thing to consider: some countries have critical job lists for immigration, where if you have a certain occupation it's easier to get a work visa. For the countries you are considering, do you have such an occupation? If not, it might be worthwhile to reconsider schooling, but you have to to decide.


all I can say ,I am mathematician and interested in some specific issues,basically speaking: intelectual productions, language learning etc.
as you see these issues are broad.

but the more interesting point is that probably I am not prefering to focuse on the right things. I presume probably this is because I suspect from tomorrow (of some nations maybe) . :?: :(

a general view: yeah yes, language learning is entertaining and / or joyful. But I believe that at least one clear "aim" should be available in language learning.
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Re: to which type of reasons do you refer to as a language learner when you make a language selection for learning?

Postby jimmy » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:13 pm

Xenops wrote:[

Another thing to consider: some countries have critical job lists for immigration, where if you have a certain occupation it's easier to get a work visa. For the countries you are considering, do you have such an occupation? If not, it might be worthwhile to reconsider schooling, but you have to to decide.


one more point:

I remember a face to face conversation between me and one British English person like this:

I asked : what are you doing as job?
X said : I am a type of trader (I manage restaurants ) now I have 15 restarants in England.
I asked: what is your educational background?
X said: I did not prefer to read after primary school
I asked: why?
X said: because this route does not guarantee any job position for you so I did not prefer.

*****
after that I had nothing to say, the conversataion stopped and ended.
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