Pronunciation - I strive for ...

General discussion about learning languages

I strive for ...

Pimsleur pronunciation
11
28%
Natural pronunciation
29
73%
 
Total votes: 40

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9315

Re: Pronunciation - I strive for ...

Postby Le Baron » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:29 pm

I can understand the concern of some learners who feel they might be spending an inordinate amount of time on sounding like a voice-over. Especially those who've learned languages before. Most learners today are aware of sounding like e.g. 'book French', like a Linguaphone gramophone record which is not comparable to so-called 'street French'. On the Spanish learning videos on YT I've watched some of the most viewed videos are those talking about common slang and teaching pronunciation quirks in the everyday language. This is true for most language videos now on YT. Those things which cause the average intermediate learner to feel the gap between learning X-language and what X-language sounds like in ordinary use. Or very informal use.

So it's not a wholly unreasonable conclusion to draw for a learner. That if they quickly start try to start pronouncing like that ordinary person on the street, this translates into 'more fluent' more quickly. Not that I think it does at a deeper level, but it sounds more authentic, if you can keep it up. There is some overlap here between pronunciation and vernacular speech/slang.

When you're learning you can't possibly just learn the way everyone really speaks and pronounces their words or you'd end up in confusion. The native 'on the street' knows what the 'correct' pronunciation is because they can recognise it even if they don't use it. As a learner you have to learn everything in a different way, the reverse way even. So if you started out on e.g. French and took 'street' pronunciation as your goal you'd be having to learn to say something like "Y veut pas parler ?', whilst also knowing the 'book' version is 'ne veut-il pas parler ?' or 'est-ce qu'il ne veut pas parler ?' So which are you going to learn first? It might be different if you're in the country, but outside of it it's wise to go for the one that matches the written version and then learn afterwards what it often sounds like in the 'street' version. It might differ per language, the gap between written and informal French is quite large.

These two flows of your own speaking and you understanding other people don't have to match. You only have to be able to recognise and know what other people are saying, you don't have talk identically like that yourself and it's not like you won't be understood. However I'd definitely go for taking the sharp edges off 'learner' pronunciation once at a point of normal usage. Especially if you end up using the language a lot among natives. However that's field work rather than preparatory learning work.
10 x

User avatar
Henkkles
Green Belt
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:13 pm
Languages: N FI | A EN SV | I EE RU | B FR LN
x 789

Re: Pronunciation - I strive for ...

Postby Henkkles » Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:15 am

I think what learners often don't understand and what leads to a perception of having a strong accent is not reducing things enough. Reduced pronunciation of some elements is a focus strategy and important for the narrative structure of what you're telling someone. The right reductions in the right places are very important for achieving a natural pronunciation.
6 x

User avatar
Deinonysus
Brown Belt
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm
Location: MA, USA
Languages:  
• Native: English
• Advanced: French
• Intermediate: German,
   Spanish, Hebrew
• Beginner: Italian,
   Arabic
x 4618

Re: Pronunciation - I strive for ...

Postby Deinonysus » Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:47 pm

I think "Pimsleur Pronunciation" is a pretty good stepping stone on the way to "natural pronunciation." And in fact, Pimsleur is a good place to pick up the difference. After the very early lessons, the voice-over actors will still over-enunciate when they introduce a word in isolation but then they will say it more naturally in context. For example, in the Hebrew course they introduce the word משהו (meaning "what") as a very deliberate [ˈmaʃɛˌhu], but in a sentence they usually go for the more natural [ˈmaʃu].
3 x
/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/

User avatar
Fortheo
Green Belt
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:03 pm
Languages: English (N), French (?) Russian (beginner)
x 911

Re: Pronunciation - I strive for ...

Postby Fortheo » Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:56 am

I try to read with pimsleur-like pronunciation, but I try to speak with a more casual pronunciation. I don't succeed at either :D
2 x

User avatar
SpanishInput
Yellow Belt
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:11 pm
Location: Ecuador
Languages: Spanish (N), English (C2), Mandarin (HSK 5)
x 469

Re: Pronunciation - I strive for ...

Postby SpanishInput » Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:21 am

I find it funny that the poll is Pimsleur vs. Natural.

The current Pimsleur Spanish course is by no means «perfect Spanish». The voice of the man features assibilation of final -/ɾ/ (typical of Mexico and the Andes), and the voice of the woman features /s/ aspiration (typical of several coastal dialects). Those are dialectal features that I would not recommend students imitate, but it's a good thing to get exposure to them from day one. My main gripe with Pimsleur is not with the pronunciation (the Spanish course is actually OK), but with the overly formal language.

However, I would encourage any student to try to imitate connected speech from day one. For example, «¿Qué es esto?» is most often pronounced [ˈkeˈses.to].
4 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: hanno and 2 guests