tungemål wrote:I agree that as an immigrant one should focus on learning the language, and I think most are.
B2 in one year? I have never tried and don't know if I could do it. Maybe in a language similar to my own. Irena spent two years, and if we want to be provocative we could call Serbian a Czech dialect.
If I were to learn a language outside the Latin or Germanic group, I doubt I could manage it in one year even if I studied full time. Japanese or Chinese? no way.
This thread was originally about european languages, of course Japanese or Chinese are totally different. I wouldn't claim those to be easily doable to B2 in a year. Nevertheless, people seriously studying are bound to succeed sooner or later.
Irena wrote:Hey! Go learn Serbian and Czech (in whichever order you like), and then see if you think they're dialects of each other!
Anyway, personally, I find it difficult to clock in that many hours as a beginner. It gets easier as I get more advanced, because the more advanced I get, the more access I get to legitimately interesting content. Also, there are few low-energy language activities you can engage in as a beginner (well, unless you count listening to music in your target language...). As you get more advanced, this changes. For example, even if you're quite tired, you can still watch something on YouTube in your target language and expect to get some utility out of it. As a beginner? Not so much.
As for immigrants/expats learning languages: I cannot speak to the Netherlands, but over here in the Czech Republic, it seems that Westerners generally learn very little Czech (they typically don't even try), and speakers of other Slavic languages generally learn it to the extent that their work requires it. (For work, I could have gotten away with zero Czech. But then they figured out that - surprise - I could actually speak Czech, and so they started asking me to do this thing in Czech here, that thing there... But this is a consequence of my having learned Czech, not the cause.) I'm not sure about the Vietnamese (there are quite a few Vietnamese immigrants in the Czech Republic). By now, there are quite a few second-generation Vietnamese immigrants, and those speak normal, native-level Czech, as you would expect.
Of course it gets easier as you get to the advanced level, as you can connect language time with entertainment time. But my point is: if you immigrate somewhere, it doesn't matter at all whether you enjoy learning the local language, or whether it is easy to put in many hours. You chose to move, the consequence is studying the language.
Yes, that's what I've seen too. Vast majority of expats in the Czech Republic haven't even tried.
The Vietnamese are a particular example. They are one of the largest minorities (after all the third most common Czech surname is Nguyen.). The second generation is usually perfectly bilingual. The first one is usually not. But they have some particular reasons that other immigrant minorities have not, such as documented cases of organised crime covering as "translators" and actively keeping newcomers from integration and from access to basic social and other security everyone should benefit from.
Also, the vietnamese have been rather particular in their effort to keep two cultures, rather than integrate them into some sort of a mix in their lives. They are also very often discouraging towards Czechs expressing a wish to learn (the phrases are "it is too hard" or "it is not too useful") but I sometimes had more of an impression of trying to protect their heritage. It is a legitimate choice, sure, but it comes with some downsides. But it will no longer be an issue in a few decades. Vietnamese are finally both acquiring better jobs in the majority market, but are also much more profiting from their own culture. A Vietnamese restaurant is now something trendy and excellent, a Vietnamese is no longer just a person with weird low quality goods on the market.
The lack of integrating efforts in terms of language learning also goes both sides. Learning materials to learn Vietnamese are almost non existent on the Czech market. Which is a shame.
Le Baron wrote:Well I was making a general argument, not one specifically aimed at yourself, however...
Cavesa wrote:And are those westerners studying for several hundred hours a year? I doubt it. They are failing Korean for the same reasons they are failing French or Czech. Vast majority simply doesn't study much. That's the truth.
Lots of immigrants actually are in mandatory language classes that are about 3-5 hours a day, plus homework and do stuff outside that schooling. They also succeed in learning the language. Generally, the stats from the EU tell this exact story. People can quibble about these if they like.
I don't accept the view though that all a person needs to do is 'put in' hours to something and success comes out the other end. As if the difference is someone bone fide learning a language and other people not. It's make-believe. If it was that simple I would speak great Cantonese now, because I am not stupid and did actually put in a great deal of hours. Sometimes it just doesn't work. When it fails some people blame teachers, organised learning, materials, busy lifestyles...etc When it fails for others it's due to a character defect. Apparently.
Of course. The hours are nevertheless the basic prerequisite. Conditio sine qua non. There are other things affecting the result, but my point is, that vast majority of expats fails because they don't put in the hours. It is not a huge mass of people failing in spite of extreme efforts, most of them are simply too lazy.
Yes, you can put in the hours and fail. It happens. But if you don't put in the hours, you can only fail, there is 0 probability of success.
Cavesa wrote:This is a rather cheap move, to just call someone disagreeing "a populist".
Populist version? I was their doctor (the person they very obviously lied to, in order to get their certificate), another friend was their doctor too, and yet another was giving them the language classes (to those who actually went there). Those complaints about free appartments several times bigger than ours, the salary/social money comparisons, all the cases of obvious lies during doctor consultations, even the openly described scam strategies... all that was very real.
This, however, is the sort of thing populists in the UK say about immigrants. A world where immigrants are portrayed as living in unearned opulence, several cars and with unearned incomes higher than the average barrister's salary. The salacious news will find one or two incidents (which means, shock-horror, there could even be more!) and these make everyone irate and the broad brush comes out. Though they could find multiple examples of home-grown scammers doing exactly the same thing (even though this type of fraud is actually miniscule). Yet if an immigrant does it it's a million times worse. On the other hand immigrants who become corporate asset-strippers and rob the nation get knighted for 'business success' and invited onto chat shows.
I am extremely different from the random ignorant british populist, who has zero relevant experience. It is extremely offensive to compare me to them as I have nothing in common with them. I was never describing opulence, nope. But just the fact that if you get middle class income for free, the least you can do to show your gratitude is to work as hard as you can at integrating.
I was not talking about one or two incidents. This was the everyday reality. That's the issue. The problem is not one or two extreme cases. The problem is this becoming a common trend among a not that negligeable part of the immigrants.
Cavesa wrote:It is extremely easy to be "against populism", when you don't have the direct experience.
I do though That's why I'm replying. Immigration flows and the reasons for them are a massive problem, but I don't believe in demonising people.
I am not demonizing anyone. I just wish I had a way to report the obvious abusers of the system. No demonisation, just well earned deportations, which would also serve to scare the rest.
Can you imagine what it was like to move abroad to western europe, only to end in a neighbourhood, where my French was deteriorating due to the overall level of French there, where some people were treating me rudely just for wearing normal european clothes, and where I was mistreated by local authorities evn for their own mistakes, while many others were given everything without any hope of them ever contributing to the society?
I don't think you have as much experience as you claim. Until you'll have lived and worked in such an environment, you cannot claim to know anything about it. If you just taught a few immigrants, you actually don't know much. The fact they came to your class already means they are from the better group, not from the one I am talking about. You never met those abusing their doctor to give them a certificate so that they wouldn't have to meet you
No offence meant, but it looks like you are commenting from an ivory tower.
The vast majority? I've lived around and never actually seen this anywhere. If we take where I am (NL) as an example this should be the biggest hotbed of language idleness given that it's amazingly easy to speak English to people here. However this is not what happens. The limited ex-pat/tourists don't last long when reality kicks in, and the reality is that the 'vast majority' actually learns the language - since it is stipulated by law. It seems unreal that other countries less favourable to English, or any other language, as a daily linguistic currency (France, Germany, actually Belgium, especially in the south) would allow everyone to just ignore it and carry on.
Than the Netherlands is a beautiful exception. I cannot tell you about Germany. But the expants spending even decades in the anglophone bubble are the majority in the Czech Republic, and they also happen to live in France. In Belgium, I have seen few expants, I've seen mostly immigrants. But yes, I've seen many with totally insufficient French skill after many years of living there.
Of course the countries just ignore it and allow it. Nobody likes the offensive labels used otherwise.
A very interesting case is the Switzerland. It has very different advantages and faults than the EU in some ways. It is more selective in terms of immigration. I work with lots of bilingual people actually. And meet a lot of normally integrated patients every day. I meet very few of the type of immigrants I used to meet in Belgium. In some ways, it is even weird, and the Switzerland looks at times even cold hearted in their rules. But they get a much smaller % of those not really trying to integrate. But when it comes to expats, it is a different story.
I am now working nere Geneve. So, one of the most international cities on the planet, with highly prestigious organisations, where expacts can truly live in a bubble. But even there, I see various approaches. The best are of course those, who are trying to learn, trying to use French. If English is more comfortable to them in a stressful situation and/or in pain, it's ok. Then there are those failing to learn but clearly regretting it and feeling guilty and actually even thanking us for using English. And then there are some arrogant cases of those expecting English, but those also tend to be assholes in other ways too.
It will be most interesting to see what it is really like a bit further away from this exceptional city.
In truth we don't know how accomplished or not the OP is. Whether or not it was just frustration at not being fluent 'enough' after feeling like having put in a lot of years - note well this person was/is still attending classes. My assumption was the OP was asking a 'what's wrong?...why is this happening?' type of question with a layer of normal frustration being expressed. I don't think the assumption that the OP is lazy or not trying hard enough or 'entitled' is warranted considering none of really know what the fine details are. I just took it as someone asking: 'what am I to do?'
I don't really want to be in a dispute with you over this Cavesa.
Unfortunately, the OP didn't answer after the one post. Yes, I'd be very curious to know the details too.
No, I don't really want to be in dispute either. But doubting my experience based on your limited one (because you only get to meet the better immigrants, those who actually show up for a class, while I got to meet the whole spectrum) is very rude.
(Because the program was very academic, and they weren't getting that much speaking practice.) Now, I don't claim that you have to be a genius to go to Cambridge, but I also don't think Cambridge students are dummies...
